Home - TH2 - Egyptian Culture

TH2 - Honorable Egyptian Culture - Emperor

A Succession Game

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 15, 2002 03:45 PM
Title : TH2 - Honorable Egyptian Culture - Emperor

EDIT: Roster here for easy reference:
Jersey Joe

With LK not starting new games now, and my own first game having died, I'll try starting another.

Culture is fun. The goal for this game is to achieve the 100k cultural win, which many players have never done. HOWEVER, culture forcibly imposed on the pagans has no meaning. Therefore, we will hold to the Honorable way of conducting our civilization. You can read the Honorable rules at the Realms Beyond:


There will be one further stipulation: Even in an honorable war (which is one that the opposing civilization declares), we will capture or raze no more than FIVE cities of that civilization. (The idea is to not simply conquer the world and then build culture.)

We will be Egypt, for several reasons:

1. We rather need one of the cultural-enhancing attributes to have a chance.

2. Babylon would be too easy.

3. Industrious is a good trait, especially in SGs, which often build fewer workers. Plus you get to see worker projects completed on your turn.

4. Personally, I've played most of the other religious civs enough. :)

Difficulty - Emperor (yes!)
Map - Standard size, Continents, 60% water, 3 opposing civs (so we'll have ample land)
Civilization - Egypt
Opponents - random, but will restart if Babylon is among them (checking via F11), or if none of the opponents have a cultural-enhancing trait.
Victory condition - All except Diplomatic enabled, but we will go for none other than 100k civ-wide culture. I'm hoping it will turn into a race between our culture and another civ's spaceship.

Turn length - Every player may always play anywhere from 10 to 20 turns at their discretion. Sometimes in a builder game, just not much happens, while other times we may bogged down in war.

Only experienced Emperor players should apply. (Sirian, LKendter, can you fit this one in?) If nobody is interested on Emperor, I will drop it to Monarch, but I'd like to play the harder version.

So who's interested?

Author : LKendter
Date : Jul 15, 2002 04:01 PM


Sorry, but no. I want to get to ZERO active games for a bit to reset civ SG BURNOUT.

Author : Architect
Date : Jul 15, 2002 08:38 PM

I would like to play, but only if we upgrade to 1.29 right away when it comes out.

Author : joespaniel
Date : Jul 15, 2002 08:46 PM

Going for a culture win on Emperor, hmm...

I tried one as the Babs on Monarch a little while ago, and it got a little boring after a spell. Theres a long wait for 100k to amass even with alot of conquest cities.
Early wonder building is totally crucial.

I might be interested, T-Hawk. Lets see who else wants to join.
Monarch would be more my speed for this kind of challenge, but I would go Emperor if outvoted.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 15, 2002 09:13 PM

Aha --

This game will not start until the patch comes out. Signups still accepted, though.

Author : Architect
Date : Jul 15, 2002 09:14 PM

I'm in then...

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 15, 2002 09:31 PM

I'd join but I am a far cry from an experienced Emperor player (GOTM9 is my first emperor-level game). Sorry TH1 fell apart, but I'm back.

Author : Sirp
Date : Jul 16, 2002 08:29 AM
Title : I'd like to play

I would like to play if there are still places available.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 16, 2002 03:09 PM

So far, it's myself, Architect, and Sirp. Looking for up to three more. Exsanguination and joespaniel are maybes.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Jul 16, 2002 06:42 PM

Sign me up.

T-hawk, are you planning on an ICS build out?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 20, 2002 04:11 AM

Hang on - RL is busy, and I haven't patched yet. I'll get to this probably Sunday night.

As for ICS - a dense build is certainly required for a 100k culture win, but ICS is un-fun. Let's specify this: no pairs of cities at 6-tiles or more of overlap(which is a 3/0 or 3/1 distance on the grid) except to fill in along a coastline. That gives each city right around 12 tiles, which is optimal.

We've got four - do you want in, joespaniel? I can put you last on the roster, so I'll inherit and fix your :smoke: s :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 22, 2002 04:28 PM

so I'm in?

I should be able to squeeze in time for this SG. When are we gonna get it rolling?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 22, 2002 04:35 PM

If you're in, that makes five.

I need to finish Realms Beyond Epic Seven, so I can patch, then I'll get this rolling. Probably tonight; if not, definitely tomorrow. Sorry for the delay, but I'll get there.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 24, 2002 03:46 AM

Thanks for your patience, guys. I'm installing the patch right now, and will start the game. Here's the roster:

Jersey Joe

I tried to space out those who I know are experienced Emperor players and have them followig the less-experienced. If anyone wants to move around, please feel free to say so. :)

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 24, 2002 03:59 AM

*jaw drops*

This is one of the most ludicrous starts I've ever seen.

Our opponents are India, China, and Russia. Good mix - they represent all six civ traits! :)

Author : LKendter
Date : Jul 24, 2002 04:07 AM

I know the farmers gambit is dead with 1.29.
However, can you say settler factory!

City #2 better become a military factory.
I got creamed with Emporer and 1.29 - you need military ASAP!
My first to research - Bronze worker if I don't have it.

Author : Sirp
Date : Jul 24, 2002 04:10 AM

my goodness; I thought I had seen some good starts...but I think that has to top just about everything :)

only downer is that irrigating that cattle will take a teensy bit of time, because it's not right on the river - but we're industrious! If we don't win this game, we should all be lined up and shot :)

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 24, 2002 04:12 AM

It got irrigated right away, by "through the city square" irrigation.

Yes, Lee, we think alike, I'm researching Bronze. :)

It'd be an ice-cold win if it were a straight game, but remember the variant - it might yet prove to be interesting.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 24, 2002 05:04 AM

For once, I don't research Pottery first. Instead, it's Bronze Working.

The worker frenziedly starts irrigating all that food! Food food food food food!

I built FIVE warriors to start; two to stay in the capital for badly needed police duty, and defense. One popped a hut and got killed. :(

Checking on F11, our city hit size 4 before any AI city hit 3!

We're absolutely drowning in food - this is the first time I EVER saw an Industrious civ outrace its worker for improved tiles!

I played 20 turns to 3000 BC. Thebes will build a spear this turn - it could switch to something else but there's a barb approaching. I would of course suggest a settler next, and I'd probably even whip it out since Thebes will otherwise grow to size 7, where it would waste food upon dropping to 5.

I'm not sure what to research next - Bronze came this past turn so we have nothing in on anything. It's set to Pottery (other than our ludicrous start, it actually looks pretty dry).

One other thing to consider is starting the Pyramids very soon, like after two settlers and maybe a temple. We're going for culture, after all; and we'll have a ton of cities (60% water, only four civs) that will need granaries. Plus it'll be a Golden Age - and an early Golden Age is not wasted for a bunch of cities working one-shield plains. If we do that, mine some plains to help it along.

Here's a tentative dotmap. We are planning on a dense build, but let's not totally go ICSing. The one SW of Thebes is okay to fill in along the coast, and it can also share one of the cows at times when Thebes doesn't need it. First priority is probably the one due north of Thebes. That river to the north looks like it might go a long way... one more city up that river - try N-N-NE from the one there already - might make for a perfect Forbidden Palace location and we should consider beelining there.


Architect <<<< UP NOW
Jersey Joe <<<< On Deck

Remember, play anywhere from 10 to 20 turns, your choice.

EDIT: Actually, another idea is to move that north dot one NE to pull in the shield grasslands right away, and start the Pyramids instantly as soon as the city's founded, having Thebes build workers to help it out. Can't see any other good spot besides the capital to build the Pyramids, though.

Author : Sirp
Date : Jul 24, 2002 05:54 AM

hmm...I was thinking you could only irrigate "through the city" if the city was next to irrigation; I forgot you could do it just because it was next to some fresh water. Lucky I didn't start :)

Yeah, the variant will still be challenging. I think I recall someone from Firaxis saying he thought a 100k culture win was very hard on regent, and something about almost being impossible on higher levels :)

Also, wouldn't you want that dot on the floodplains in the north to be north-west one, on the plains? Then it gets an extra floodplains square for fast growth, but isn't on floodplains itself, so no disease (I think this is right...if you're not *on* floodplains, you don't get affected by disease, right?)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Jul 24, 2002 02:10 PM

I think we should whip a temple in every town ASAP to take advantage of the 1,000 year culture increase.
I can only see the starting map and not the dot map so you probably have this idea covered :) The city spot you mentioned to the north (you said N, N, NE) a coastal city there looks to be a good spot for building Wonders like the Colossus.

Author : Architect
Date : Jul 24, 2002 02:15 PM

Ok, I got it, but won't be able to play until tonight.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 24, 2002 03:53 PM

Definitely whip temples - and remember the Pyramids will make doing that even more efficient. :)

The Colossus isn't that important. We'll have a lot of cities, so the commerce income isn't a big percentage increase; it's really not significant culture; and I'd rather see the AIs build that than cascade to something we want more.

I don't know why you can't see the dotmap... try going directly to the address? http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/th2-dotmap.jpg

By N-N-NE, I was talking about a potential Forbidden Palace spot to the far north. The second city should be N-N-N from Thebes if it's going to build a temple first, or N-N-N-NE if it wants a wonder.

Sirp: floodplains anywhere within the radius can still cause disease, but I think you're right that it'd be better to found on the plains. That'd also mean moving the dot to the right of that in a bit to cover the space.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Jul 24, 2002 05:57 PM

T-hawk my not seeing the dot map is because I am at work and cannot get to that address due to corporate firewall.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 25, 2002 01:52 AM

I see myself learning a whole lot from this game... :D.

By now I would have produced my first settler long ago... shows what I know (no wonder I've lost GOTM9 before meeting the other civs). I'll try not to screw up too much :rolleyes:.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 25, 2002 06:38 AM

No worry, Ex, I would've done that too by now, if it hadn't been for Lee and his dire warnings about farmer's gambit in 1.29. I'm actually wondering if all the defense was really necessary - we knew there would be lots of space per civ, and there aren't THAT many barbs (I forget what the barbs setting was, actually :crazyeye: ) Joe could swap to settler instead of the spearman now; it might be a good idea, his call.

edit: Architect could swap now. Not Joe. I need sleep now. :)

Author : Sirp
Date : Jul 25, 2002 08:21 AM

yes, I would suggest switching to a settler. The AI does crack down a little on farmer's gambits in 1.29, but lets not get paranoid here!

Author : Architect
Date : Jul 25, 2002 12:57 PM

3000BC(0) - I veto production of a spearman and switch to a settler. I MM our citizens to still grow in 1 turn and increase the production to so the settler pops in 3 turns instead of 4.

2950BC(1) - I increase lux to 30%, we really need a temple in this city for a number of reasons. We attack and kill a barbarian and discover an deserted village.

2900BC(2) - We repel the barbs and produce a settler, I begin construction of a temple. I drop lux to 10%.

2850BC(3) - I start a road towards the furs and our second city.

2800BC(4) - I whip the temple in Thebes for the cost of one citizen.

2750BC(5) - I drop lux to 10%, increase science to 90% we get pottery in 4 turns at the cost of 1 gold per turn. Memphis is founded and starts a warrior. I start a settler in Thebes.

2700BC(6) - We begin a road to the furs.

2650BC(7) - Raise Luxs to 20%.

2600BC(8) - ...

2590BC(9) - Our women enjoy fine furs! We discover pottery. I want to learn to communicate better and eventually produce a great building that contains all the knowledge of the world.

2550BC(10) - Thebes produces a settler, I switch to granary. I running 10% lux and 90% science.

2510BC(11) - ...

2470BC(12) - ...

2430BC(13) - Heliopolis is founded and begins constuction of a warrior.

2390BC(14) - We discover another empty village.

2350BC(15) - Memphis completes a warrior and begins construction of a worker. The northern sea boarder has been well established. We seem to have this entire area for ourselves, and we maybe completely alone on an insland! I don't think it will be a good place for a FP however.

2310BC(16) - I could have whipped the granary but decide against it.

2270BC(17) ...

2230BC(18) Warrior completes in Helio and I start another one. Thebes is the greatest city in the world.

2190BC(19) Our granary completes, I switch to worker.

2150BC(20) Memphis and Thebes produce workers. I switch to a temple in Memphis and a settler in Thebes. We should have enough workers to plan our roads and irrigation before our cities grow so we don't have unworked tiles. This is a big part of playing industrious correctly so try to think about what is the best thing to improve next. You will also need to manage the sliders most every turn for awhile to keep everything working right and so we don't run out of money. I shouldn't have to say this but irrigate the plains please, no mines. except for around Thebes.

I also think that the most important early wonder for a cultural victory is the Great Library. It is six per turn and 12 after 1000 years. It has the added benefit of giving us a second early culture building. I would beeline right for this tech over anything else and I totally disagree with Bronze working as a first tech. We still have yet to produce a spearman and if we are not going to build the colossus (which I think we should because it is the most underrated wonder in the game IMO) why did we research it. Should have done alphabet first IMO. The fact that we look to be alone on this continent (it is possible that we may still not be but I doubt it) means the writing techs (lit, map maping) are very important and we must must find the other civs across the water as fast as possible to take advantage of the GL. If they are all together and we are isolated this game could be a very difficult win. I also think an early golden age for free granaries is a bad thing, but I'm sure the pyramid love will take over and it gets built by the next leaders. Another reason I didn't build it yet is none of our cities besides thebes is capable of producing settlers at a decent clip. If we hamstring Thebes with a wonder right now our city growth stops. I think more early cities is much more valuable long term than free granaries and a golden age causing wonder in less cities.


Author : Architect
Date : Jul 25, 2002 01:33 PM

After thinking about the Pyramid thing some more it very possible we could get both the GL and the pyramids and as long as we get 2 more cities from Thebes first I think we will be ok. Also, once Thebes starts producing a wonder it will grow like a bat out of hell so keep some workers back to mine those plains.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 25, 2002 03:56 PM

Well, our window to get the Pyramids first is closing fast, and may have expired already. There's only three enemy civs, but this is Emperor. (Check F11 - have any capitals gotten up to size 6-7? They're probably building it.) Dammit, dammit, dammit, I wish I could share what I did in RBCiv Epic Seven right about now. :mad:

Yeah, Bronze turned out to be :smoke:, but it would have been absolutely critical had China showed up on our doorstep. :) Thanks for getting things back on track. :)

Wonders are next to meaningless for a 100k cultural goal; even the GL is no more than a library plus a cathedral and costs twice the shields. But the GL will be superb for its effect, so go for it. I might even suggest doing it not in the capital, so it can prebuild with the Palace (starting now) and live through a cascade (if we miss the GL, it could even be a Sistine prebuild.)

As for the FP, an alternative to the traditional "dumbbell" plan is to build it as centrally as possible in your empire, and then later use a Great Leader to move the Palace to another continent where you want a second core. I've done this in several games.

Jersey Joe <<< UP NOW
Sirp <<< On Deck

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Jul 26, 2002 05:19 AM

Got it.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Jul 27, 2002 08:40 PM

2150BC preturn slow Thebes growth so Settler is produced before it is size 7. Change Heliopolis to Spear.
2030BC (I) Thebes outfits a settler and starts building walls/settler (see 1950BC).
1990BC Previous whipping in Thebes gone so drop luxury tax to 0%.
1950BC Temple whipped in Memphis. Walls whipped in Thebes, Thebes switched to Settler.
(I) Memphis builds a Temple and starts Colossus.
1910BC (I) Thebes outfits a Settler and starts another.
1870BC (I) Heliopolis completes Spear starts Temple.
1790BC Elephantine Founded.
1725BC (I) Thebes outfits a settler begins a worker.
1675BC Temple whipped in Heliopolis
(I) Heliopolis completes temple starts Pyramids. Thebes completes a worker and starts another.
1625BC Alexandria Founded.
(I) Thebes completes a worker and starts another.
1600BC Pi-Ramesses if Founded.
1575BC The Illuryian tribe teaches us Mysticism.
(I) Thebes completes a worker and starts another.
(I) Thebes completes a worker and starts a Settler.
1500BC Our warrior in the South destroys a barbarian camp and we gain 25 gold.

I merged 3 workers into Memphis. If the same is done with Heliopolis it could get up to a nice size population and shield production quickly. F11 shows that Thebes at population 3 is the largest capital. So I think Heliopolis with a little MM has a shot at the Pyramids.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 28, 2002 02:49 AM

Merged 3 workers into Memphis? We had that many to spare? And if we did, they should have gone into the Pyramids city. Well, we'll figure it out.

Sirp <<<< UP NOW
Exsanguination <<<< On Deck

Author : Sirp
Date : Jul 28, 2002 05:40 AM
Title : my report

Pre-turn (1500BC): inspect current production etc, but everything looks good, so I continue with no change

1475BC (1): workers irrigate near thebes; building road to outlying cities, injured warrior rests.

1450BC (2): warrior is good to go, continues exploring.

1425BC (3): worker moves onto enriched grassland between Memphis and Elphantine. Science rate micromanagement nets a bit more gold.

1400BC (4): workers continue doing their stuff; writing in one turn, and the science slider is further micromanaged; settler due from Thebes in one turn. Temple is rushed in Elphantine.

1375BC (5): We discover writing. Set to get mapmaking next, at 22 turns - we need to discover other lands! Thebes completes settler, is set to build another one. Elphantine completes temple; I set it to build a settler too. We need to settle this whole continent before anyone else gets here! The luxury slider is taken to 0%, which we can now afford to do - the unhappiness from whipping in Memphis has worn off and Thebes has just built a settler, but we need to keep an eye on it. The temple in Alexandria is whipped.

1350BC (6): Alexandria builds its temple. I start a granary in it, but intending for it to be a prebuild for library. Hopefully it won't take us too long to discover literature. Pi-Ramesses builds its spearman and I set it to building a temple.

1325BC (7): Settler a couple of turns away from city site now. Warrior continues exploring down south. Gee....it would be nice if there were another luxury on this continent.

1300BC (8): Thebes grows to size 5; size 6 would require slider adjustment, but another settler is due by that time. Settler one square away from city site. Science researched up, and we are breaking even with 49 gold in our treasury.

1275BC (9): Culture of Elphantine expands. Mine between Elphantine and Memphis is completed, on an enriched grassland that's a 2 shield square, so I consider giving the square to Memphis, but it won't improve build time for the Colossus (even though the extra shield doesn't fall to corruption), so I give the new square to Elphantine, which is building a settler. The settler is on the new city site.

1250BC (10): Culture of Alexandria expands, and we can just spot the tip of the border of another Civilization to the north! The border color is purple, so Indians perhaps. The warrior in Alexandria is moved along the coastline, to see if it is possible to make contact, although it seems a little unlikely without a galley. Settler built in Thebes, and moves to build a city to the East. The city of Giza is build to the North, in range of wheat and whales. Our warrior spots a whale to the south, the snow region will be good for a few fishing villages.

1225BC (11): Temple in Pi-Ramesses whipped. I leave the rest of the turn for the next player. If you look closely, you can see the purple border two squares north of the warrior in the north. The granary being build in Alexandria should perhaps be changed to a galley, when we discover map making.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 28, 2002 11:52 PM

I won't be able to play until tomorrow at the earliest, so skip me if you want. If not, I'll try to grab it tomorrow afternoon.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 30, 2002 05:30 AM

Didn't hear back from Ex today, so I'm taking it now. Ex, you can feel free to jump in after me if you don't want to be skipped.

Got it.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 30, 2002 06:54 AM

The mummified corpse of Thunderhawk arises! He surveys his land, and is pleased with what he sees. Temples to worship him are spread throughout the land.

However, he decrees that the grand statue under construction at Memphis is too ostentatious and not useful enough. Instead, the city is to pile up stones around the uncompleted statue until it forms a great Pyramid. Heliopolis is instead directed to use its first layer of pyramid stones as a hall to train warriors. (We WILL have barb problems, and as a low-food first-ring city, it's great as a military factory. And if we want the Pyramids, we've got to go FAST. Moscow is back up to size 4, and may be building them.)

Memphis is also directed to claim every available ounce of production within its radius. (We'll need lux tax if it grows to size 6, so I level it off at size 5 and no food surplus with 10 shields. But, two of those shields are lost to corruption; with 9 produced it loses only one, so it can yield one of the shield grasslands back to Elephantine.)

Our northernmost warrior shouts and yells, but to no avail; the strange purple denizens to the north cannot hear him.

Many years later...

In 1000 BC, we discover how to make maps, and so immediately whip the people into building a boat in Alexandria. The captain of the boat reports that he has met India!

India has contact with the Chinese, for which we can offer nothing. They have all the knowledge we do.

Was Thunderhawk using the pungent weed? He agrees with the Indians to pay them one gold every cycle for their world map. We now know that China inhabits the same continent as the Indians, to the northeast, and that our galley may reach them within a hundred years.

Both their lands are very dry like ours, but have a ludicrous amount of wheat:

In the year 850 BC, we met the Chinese people. They generously traded us The Wheel and Warrior Code for merely our world map and a pittance of gold. China is hemmed in and tiny. Our culture is FAR superior to either of theirs - but Russia still lurks somewhere.

Thunderhawk is now falling asleep, and so passes on his reign. His final thoughts:

Byblos and Hieraconpolis will want temples whipped at the appropriate times. Byblos may want a galley first instead, to explore the land to the west and ferry settlers over. Hieraconpolis will disperse a barb camp by expanding.

We can trade over coastal squares with India and China, so get a harbor done sometime. (China should have one soon; they're militaristic and buried in tundra.)

Heliopolis and Pi-Ramesses have barracks and should be military factories.

Memphis is due for the Pyramids in exactly 20 turns. Moscow has grown to size 5 and is almost assuredly building them. Keep Memphis on MAX shields. (At this point, it can't finish them any sooner by growing.)

Architect or Exsanguination, either of you can go next, whoever claims it first.

T-hawk << Played
Architect << UP NOW
Jersey Joe << On Deck
Exsanguination << Up now if he claims it before Architect


Author : Architect
Date : Jul 30, 2002 02:42 PM

I somehow always get up in all my games at once. Exsanguination, you should get this one before me because I won't be able to get to my other game until tomorrow either.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 30, 2002 10:04 PM

save me for the weekend, I'm stuck full of school work, and have very little time. I will play this weekend, I promise. Keep me in the normal rottion, I should be able to go by the time I come around again. I cannot drop this game!

Author : T-hawk
Date : Jul 30, 2002 10:17 PM

Remember you don't have to take a whole lot of turns. I'd be happy if you jumped in for 5 turns, just to keep participation up and the game moving.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Jul 31, 2002 03:11 AM

well, if no one claims it I'll see if I can throw in a couple turns tomorrow around 5pm (the only time I can ever play ;)). Don't wait for me, though :lol:.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 01, 2002 12:05 AM

got it

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 01, 2002 12:22 AM

(T-Hawk - next time, save at the END of the turn, not the beginning!)

1 - Why are those horses not hooked up? There must be a reason... Spearman to Elephantine who has no MP, yet is size 2 and going to grow. Settler sent north. By the looks of the current map, looks like we are trying to be tile-conservative (or liberal... mm not sure!)? Re: no overlap. Thus, The two settlers in the field will settle the most productive spots. Thebes is producing 7 shields/turns and producing a settler = 30 shields. Result, 5 WASTED shields. Because the irrigated wheat is on a river, I will MM Thebes every turn to keep growth up, not lose any prod time, but jump up commerce a tad. MM Elephantine to bump up commerce.

The Indians are building the Pyramids

2 - Worker sent to hook up horses. Worker put to build road to forthcoming city. Movement.

3 - Asyut founded. Temple in El-Amarna CAN be whipped, but I don't do it because one citizen is unhappy. Someone clarify me as to the rules and consequences of whipping, I rarely EVER do it. Science moved down to 50% at 0 loss.

4 - Helioplois to Oracle. It gives culture... can be vetoed if necessary. I don't see what else it should build - the smaller cities should concentrate on settlers. I'm thinking get the big cities to build wonders?

5 - Thebes builds settler, starts settler. Heliopolis riots. Major :smoke: here, I did NOT see that, and I was even in its city window!!! Consequently, I give it an entertainer. Is it really worth pumping up the lux tax for one city?

I'm strapped for time, so I only did 5 turns as T-Hawk suggested. I apologize for any :smoke:s I made. One question: With such limited land space and only tundra left, how are we going to bring up enough cities to get 100k culture (unless we make at least 10-12 super-culture citites)?

Here is the save:

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 01, 2002 01:59 AM

I got called away from the computer and didn't get back to it until way after I should've been asleep, so I just called it quits in mid-turn and posted. :)

Horses aren't hooked up because we only got The Wheel on my last turn. :)

Whipping rules: when you whip, you kill enough citizens to finish the current project (20 shields per citizen), and add 20 turns of "whip memory" to the city per citizen. For each 20 turns of penalty or part thereof that a city has, there's one unhappy face.

So if you whip 2 citizens, there will be two unhappy faces in the city for 20 turns, and then one unhappy face for the 20 turns after that. If you then whip it again while there are 3 turns left on the last unhappy face, the city will then have 23 turns of penalty: two sad faces for the first three turns and one for the next 20.

If you click on an unhappy citizen in a city, it will show you if the city is still under a whip effect, and you can usually work out how many sad faces are in effect. The bottom line is that you get worsening returns if a city has more than one whip-induced sad face.

Oracle is a great idea for its effects (we've got temples everywhere and there's quite a bit of time before Theology), not just the culture. I doubt we'll get it, though - anyone else on the Pyramids will cascade to it. Keep it building anyway; Heliopolis may be able to use the Palace to tide it over until the Hanging Gardens or Great Library come available.

As for land, who says we can't eventually expand off our continent? Also, capturing cities is a limited but on-the-table option for us.

Architect << UP NOW
Jersey Joe << On Deck

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 03, 2002 05:43 PM

Architect, you're overdue. Joe, it's yours if you claim it. (Architect can still swap with Joe, but once Sirp claims it after Joe, Architect is skipped.)

Author : LKendter
Date : Aug 03, 2002 09:38 PM

@ T-hawk
FYI - He is ALSO overdue in LK29.
Not just an miss on your game.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 04, 2002 01:18 PM

I got it.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 04, 2002 03:14 PM

I'm sorry. RL pulled me unexpectantly out of pocket and when I tried to come and let everyone know I couldn't access the site because of DNS issues. I didn't have access to this forum at my mother's house. Please put me after Joe.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 05, 2002 01:00 AM

750BC preturn Move science rate to 90% Iron Working in 1 turn. Change Heliopolis entertainer to tax collector. Move an El-Amana citizen to working forests, temple in 3 turns down from 5. Giza & Alexandria set to building harbors.
(I) Russia builds Oracle. We learn Iron working start on Literature.
730BC Destroy Barbarian camp + 25 gold. Heliopolis changed from Oracle to spearman. Galley sent to cross the sea/ocean.
(I) India starts the Pyramids.
710BC Galley survives trip and we see land. Whip temple in Byblos.
690BC Galley sails down coast, no sign of life. Byblos temple -> Harbor. El-Amana temple -> harbor.
(I) India lands a settler/warrior pair in our lands :(
670BC Our galley makes contact with the Russians. Temple whipped in Hieraconpolis.
(I) India founds a city on our continent.
Hieraconpolis temple -> barracks.
630BC Trade Russia contact with Indians + 2 gold for Math. Math + 12 gold to India for Code of Laws + WM. Math to China for Philosophy + 11 gold + WM.
Philosophy to Russia for horseback riding + 13 gold. Contact with China to Russia for 26 gold. + TM. WM to Gandi for 42 gold. TM to russia for 26 gold.
590BC Whip a temple in Asyut. Embassies established in Russia & India.
(I) Asyut temple -> courthouse.
570BC Alexandria & El-Amarna changed from harbors to courthouses.
550BC (I) Abydos temple -> harbor.
530BC Temple whipped in Avaris.
(I) Avaris temple -> courthouse.
510BC Butus & Edfu founded.

This looks like a good stoping point. We Learn literature next turn. There is only 1 settler active. He is just south of Thebes. I was goin going to send this settler south past Abydos to claim the fur on the tundra.

We do not have an embassy in China. I held off not wanting to spend most of our remaining gold.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 05, 2002 01:42 AM

It might've been to our advantage to delay Russian contact with the rest of the world. Still, sounds like you did fine with the brokering.

Architect, you're up now if you claim it before, say, Wednesday morning. :)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 05, 2002 01:43 PM

I thought about not trading contact and if we had been closer to learning a new tech I would have waited to trade. The turn I did the round of trading is the turn Russia learned Math.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 05, 2002 01:58 PM

I got it. I will play tonight.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 06, 2002 03:48 AM

510BC(0) - Leave everything as it is.

490BC(1) - We discover literature. I switch to republic drop science to zero and make a scientist. Hopefully we can get the Great Library. We can get 200gp from India for Literature and they now have polythesim. I'm going to hold off on any Literature trades until after we (hopefully) build the pyramids.

470BC(2) - Nothing much, 2 turns to the pyramids.

450BC(3) - Do the worker shuffle..

430BC(4) - We get the pyramids and the golden age, Indians switch to great lighthouse so I'm not going to trade literature. Memphis is now building the Colossus in 20 turns. Heli is building the Great Library in 40 turns and Pi-Ram is doing a 59 turn palace for kicks. India is sending a galley around our coastline. They are likely going to settler to our southern area. I'm going to keep cranking setters from thebes to just to fill in those gaps in the tundra. I up lux to 10% to keep everyone happy while we ride this granary wave..

410BC(5) - ...

390BC(6) - ...

370BC(7) - Indians really suck and found a city in our tundra. I found pithom near the furs. Whip a temple in Lisht.

350BC(8) - I buy an indian worker. I realize this may not be honorable but don't take the time to check. If it is not, then please sell it back and give gandi a gift to make up for my transgression.

330BC(9) - Luxuries at 20% now.

310BC(10) - I rush a temple in Budo. I change its one citizen to a scientist. I was using Alexandria for this but I think budo is a better choice long term. There are four settlers running around now in the tundra. My plan was to plop a city right next to the indians where the mine and the fish are in the city radius. Russians and Chinese are building colossus but I bet with our GA we can get it. My DYING WISH is to have this wonder completed. It is very underrated and lasts for a long time


Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 06, 2002 07:01 AM

Buying workers is fine, no problem there.

We can go for the Colossus, sure - even if we miss it it's no more than a 200 shield loss and can probably be cashed in for a library or something.

We're still in despotism, right? We should be researching Republic at the max we can handle. Can we research it fast enough to get to it during some of our Golden Age? It's only the one turn of anarchy to revolt, of course.

You played 10 turns; remember up to 20 is always okay. You could've seen out your Colossus plan... If you post a got it now before Sirp does you're welcome to take another 10.

Sirp, you're up; Exsanguination on deck.

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 06, 2002 11:59 AM

ok, I see it; will probably play tomorrow though.


Author : Architect
Date : Aug 06, 2002 12:27 PM

I didn't do republic full bore for a couple reasons:

1. We don't have currency yet so no Marketplaces means a republic right now will kill us.

2. We were becoming cash starved and even just to get to 30 turns was a -1 loss (before the GA).

3. The pyramids provides an equivalent early age food boost simulation without needing irrigation. We are effectively in the best possible pre-marketplace situation you can be in outside of Monarchy + GA IMO.

4. I'm expecting the GL to provide us with about 8 techs. During that time we have no research going and full cash to build out our empire. By the time education rolls around we should have marketplaces, libraries, and cathedrals everywhere.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 06, 2002 02:47 PM

Oh, right, the GL. :crazyeye: I assume you meant the cascade is thinned out enough that it's ours without competition.

Heh, are we sure this is Emperor? It's playing out to be rather easy :)

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 07, 2002 12:10 PM

(0) 310BC: Everything looks pretty good; I leave as-is.

(1) 290BC: Giza finished temple; start on library. Change Thebes from settler to library. We don't have any good city sites left on this continent.

(2) 270BC: Ghandi threatens us for literature. I tell him to go stick it. I do sell him literature for his world map and 180 gold though. The Indians are building the Great Library, and have beaten us to the Colossus. We switch to the Lighthouse. We establish an embassy with the Chinese.

(3) 250BC: Elphantine completes worker, start on library.

(4) 230BC: Settlers moving into position to found cities. Other civs now have construction. We trade away our only horses supply for Chinese gems. I think it's worth it :)

(5) 210BC: The Chinese are building the Great Library

(6) 190BC: Thebes completes library. We need some defense, so I set it to building a barracks. Other cities are set to building libraries.

(7) 170BC: Moving settlers in the south in position to found cities.

(8) 150BC: blah

(9) 130BC: Chinese galley sailing down our west coast, probably going for unclaimed land in the south.

(10) 110BC: blah.

hmm...the fileserver seemed to be having issues, so I attached it to the post instead.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 08, 2002 12:03 AM

Nobody wants to take up to 20 turns anymore? :)

Horses for gems sounds fine.

I would recommend going for the Great Library rather than the Lighthouse. And we want to grab Construction as soon as we can (like with the Library :) ); gotta get the aqueducts and colosseums up.

Exsanguination, you're up; I'm on deck.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 08, 2002 01:19 AM

whoa... man I need to get my head on straight. Got it, can't play till tomorrow afternoon. Had I known I was up I would've played today, but alas, I was unaware. Sorry guys :rolleyes:.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 08, 2002 11:11 PM

0 - everything is in order. Russia has construction, polytheism, and currency, the latter of which India lacks. China is as behind as we. I trade WM + 165g to India for Polytheism to bring us one step closer to Monarchy and the Hanging Gardens. Sell WM to everyone else.

1 - Indians are building the GW.

2 - Arthribis founded. Chinese settler lands on our home soil. Trade WM + 505g for Monarchy + worker from India. Pi-Rameses to Hanging Gardens (7 turns). Russia and India are in the Middle Ages.

3 - Our Golden Age Ends (down to +30g/turn)! India completes the Great Lighthouse, dag blasted! Memphis changed to library at 157 shield cost (what else to build?).

5 - Alexandris falls inyo disorders (kicks self repeatedly). If there is one thing I hate about Emperor/Deity, its the constant need for careful MM EVERY turn. blasted.

Second time I've left a city in disorder. :aargh:

However, with my current scenario project/school/private games/and whatnot, I may have to drop this game (notice I only played 5 turns). Don't count me out yet, I'd like to see this game through.

EDIT: I vow to never use the civfanatics upload server again until it is fixed! I've uploaded the SAV twice and edited the filename 5x, and it still doesn't work. This isn't the first time. Screw this! Attachments from now on!

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 08, 2002 11:18 PM


Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 09, 2002 06:00 AM

Don't have time to play now (will tomorrow night), but looked at the save.

Why the !@#$% aren't we in Monarchy? :smoke:

Elephantine looks like a pretty darn good Forbidden Palace location. I'll rush a courthouse, get some hills mined, and start on the FP.

Russia's culture may be a problem; they're scientific, and look to have an absolute TON of land over there. Well, we'll see how it goes.

5 turns is fine if that's all you can do; I'd like to see you hang in through it, and I notice in your sig it is your only SG. :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 09, 2002 01:45 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
Why the !@#$% aren't we in Monarchy? :smoke:

wow... I never even thought of it. I was too caught up trying to secure the Hanging Gardens (not to mention I was kinda rushed). My apologies, that is a true :smoke: - and we're religious!

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 09, 2002 02:17 PM

T-hawk, is a courthouse necessary in Elephantine? Corruption will be less if we switch to monarchy.

Also, T-hawk, early on you mentioned doing something you used in an Epic. What was that idea? Building the pyramids in Thebes, beelining to monarchy, or something else?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 09, 2002 03:53 PM

Monarchy: I realized after I posted that that you were probably waiting for Republic, so consider me less harsh on you. :) But it's also true that Monarchy will be better than Republic for a while - if we get the Great Library, Monarchy will be good right up until Education; even if not, we should stay in Monarchy for police until we get the cathedrals up in the core cities.

Good point about Elephantine, but I'm not going to whip a courthouse in Despotism anyway :), so of course we'll see how it looks in Monarchy first. It's over 50% corruption right now, so a courthouse will probably get the FP done sooner overall even in Monarchy.

In Epic Seven (full report at the address in my sig), I did both the early Pyramids as Egypt and the Monarchy beeline. In this game (which I did start before Epic Seven was revealed), I was intending to build the Pyramids early here as well; they came later than I would've built them but still worked out fine.

We didn't really beeline to Monarchy in this game; I probably would've tried to do so, but again that's the fun of an SG :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 09, 2002 04:03 PM

T-Hawk - in my recent (MUCH more successful games than when I first started playing) games, I have never entered Republic, believe it or not. I generally stay in despotism or monarchy up until usually the industrial ages, then go straight into Democracy. I've had too many bad experiences switching too early - Monarchy is a PERFECT government if you handle it right. I'd reccomend going into monarchy until we conquer at least one civ (my usually strategy).

Republic is too iffy, you can never really tell whether you are ready. Especially on the higher diff. levels, the republic is just an unnecessary stepping stone to democracy.

BUT - being a religious civ, we can switch govts frivolously. So switch away!

Thats just my 2 cents.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 09, 2002 04:16 PM

"Until we conquer at least one civ"? Reread the first post in the thread - we aren't conquering anybody ;)

With a non-religious civ, 80% of the time I simply jump straight to Republic and stay there forever. On the higher difficulties, you don't have time to waste in anarchy. Unless Monarchy comes FAR earlier than Republic and it's a peaceful game, in which case I MIGHT go Monarchy-Democracy. (Or if it's an always-war/all-conquest game when of course I'll go to and stay in Monarchy. :) )

You really can't switch to Republic too early barring special circumstances (one of which is having the Great Library.) The economy can be a drag for a bit, but less so than Despotic restrictions; and even if a Republic needs 30% luxuries it's still outputting as much money as a Monarchy.

Author : Arathorn
Date : Aug 09, 2002 04:45 PM

I very often follow T-hawk's path -- Despotism to Republic to stick. Republic is indeed a very useful government. You can stay in war in Republic a lot longer than Democracy. About the only thing democracy has over Republic is faster workers.

But I disagree that a Republic with 30% luxuries is outputting as much money as a Monarchy (as a broad statement), simply because of the accounting required for military units. It's very dependent on population, military size, and happiness requirements. There are times Monarchy is better than Republic even outside of warring... They're less common but do arise.

Of course, with a religious civ, it's mostly a moot point.


Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 09, 2002 10:50 PM

T-Hawk: Wow, I forgot we couldn't capture cities (at least to a limit). With that caveat winning the 100k culture against Russia will seem impossible. They have at least 1.5x our land by the looks of it. If there wasn't a limit on razing we could just conquer and resettle, but...

BTW - in the first post you said the only honorable method of war is to have the AI decalre it on you. The Realmsbeyond website is currently down (at least on my comp), so I couldn't check this. I thought as long as you formally declared war it was considered honorable?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 09, 2002 10:59 PM

This is exactly where I expected the challenge to come from in this game. :) Do look at the current culture histogram: we've got four times Russia's right now. So we're ahead.. and can we stay there? A lot will depend on where Russia builds their Forbidden Palace (too bad there's no way to find it other than getting lucky and investigating that city.)

By the Realms Beyond honorable rules, the only honorable way to attack enemy territory is if your opponent declares the war, yes. There are ways to provoke them into declaring, primarily demanding that they leave our territory.

By the variant rules I set for this game, if someone does declare war on us, we may capture/raze up to five cities of theirs, and then (clarification) accept whatever more cities they'll concede for peace. I suggest that in any wars we go for core cities, since those will be their big culture generators.

We may have to expand over onto some of Russia's hemisphere, and rush/lumberjack culture in those cities. Looks like it will indeed develop into an interesting, challenging builder's game, which is exactly what I wanted. :)

edit: Enough posting about it at work, I'm home and time to play! :goodjob:

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 10, 2002 04:29 AM

Inherited turn:

I check out who's building the Great Library. Beijing, size 5 and started recently. Moscow, a hopeless size 2. Delhi... size 9 and growing fast. I pay to investigate it. Due in 19, which will shrink fast as the city grows! Ours is due in 20, and we'll lose one turn in revolting to Monarchy! Theirs is in Golden Age enhancement, which started only two turns ago with the Great Lighthouse, too! It's going to be VERY close - Heliopolis will need workers merged and some hills improved PRONTO. (If it misses the GL, it'll be close, but it should be able to use the Palace to carry over to Sistine. Definitely Sun Tzu's at least.)

And we need a TON more workers. Only ten for 22 cities?

Swap Memphis to worker to facilitate the above plan (it's stuck at size 6 and will immediately regrow.) It's a tough call, but I also swap Thebes to a settler to merge into Helio, and then it will build a stream of workers at size 6. There isn't any particular need to have Thebes big right now, and it can crank workers far faster (every 2 turns) than any other city.

10 AD: We're a Monarchy.

Tough call whether to rush the courthouse in Elephantine. It can pull four shields without it, and probably five after growth.

Why did a worker at Memphis move by itself? NO AUTOMATED WORKERS IN SUCCESSION GAMES! I needed that worker NOW, THIS TURN, at Heliopolis.

Actually.. I'm going to rush a courthouse in Alexandria, on the north shore.

30 AD: That got Alexandria up to four shields, and it can get five once a mountain is mined. I think I'll start the FP there, actually. It will give even slightly more benefit on our continent, since there's no first-ring overlap, and do an excellent job of covering any Indian cities that we might eventually conquer. It'll only complete about ten turns later than it would in Elephantine. (And the courthouse was 150 less gold to rush there.)

50 AD: YES! Thebes is in an AWESOME situation and can crank a worker EVERY TURN! At size 6, it can hit 10 surplus food with 8 shields - and when it grows, it auto-picks the hill, gets the shields from it, and completes the worker in that one turn. :goodjob: This is a spectacular advantage - an AI can never think of that. I often do this with railroads, later in the game, but never pulled it off this early before. :D Thebes will crank out 17 workers by the end of my turn now.

130 AD: Joined workers get Heliopolis to size 12 and have all its hills mined. Lux has to go to 30% for it. GL due in 6 turns.. can we beat India to it?

150 AD: The Hanging Gardens complete, so lux can go back down to 20%.

170 AD: I pay China 120 gold to renew Horses-for-Gems.

250 AD: YES. We get the Great Library. I reloaded the save to investigate and see by how much: we beat India by 3 turns. They weren't in Golden Age. Heh, I didn't realize before - their Golden Age started with the Colossus in 290 BC, not the Lighthouse in 50 BC. The Colossus is actually Religious, Expansionist, AND Commercial, although it doesn't say the last - there's a note at Sirian's site about that.

Beijing cascades to and completes the Great Wall (that's their Golden Age), and India cascades to Sun Tzu's (they'll get it, of course.) The path to Sistine is clear, if Russia doesn't get to turn a Sun Tzu attempt into a Sistine prebuild.

Currency, Republic, Construction, Monotheism pour in. Feudalism doesn't - India's the only one with it.

Aqueducts and cathedrals start building all over the land.

I decide to take Thebes off worker churn. We now have 24, more than one per city.

280 AD: We get Feudalism from the GL.

290 AD: We get both Engineering and Chivalry from the GL. Heliopolis builds its cathedral, and starts a Palace placeholder for Sistine Chapel.

China didn't get Engineering - I trade it to them for the world map. Gadzooks, Russia's got an entire planet's worth of land over there! But they're still expanding, and building culture, slowly. I imagine barbs are giving them quite a hard time - there's like five camps visible.

Nice! That city was cultural dead meat anyway. :) And it'll be a second-ring city for us once the FP completes.

320 AD (20 turns): The health of the glorious king Thunderhawk III fails, and his successor takes the throne.

FP due in 18, not too bad.

We have a spare furs, but DO NOT trade it to India. They're having BIG happiness problems. If China gets enough to offer, we could trade it to them.

There's an Indian worker that got stuck in our territory when Dacca flipped. If you want, you can demand it get out, and see what happens.

Lots and lots and lots of culture to build now (don't forget the colosseums) - have fun! Think about Republic eventually - we can probably do it when the FP completes.


Architect, you're up. Jersey Joe on deck.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 10, 2002 05:44 AM

that worker was probably on a goto, I think I left one on a goto to irrigate by accident, sorry. I've never Automated a worker in ANY of my games.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 10, 2002 01:59 PM

Nicely done T-hawk :goodjob:

Assuming the next tech we get from the GL is Theology, what do you think about researching towards Shakespeares? (maybe a side trip to Music Theory) Side benefit will be switching to a demo early.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 10, 2002 03:55 PM

I got it. I'm gonna try to play 20 turns and have it back in a couple of hours this morning...

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 10, 2002 04:57 PM

Don't research anything until the GL actually expires - Printing Press can come from it (and the AIs might actually go for it in this builder's game.) Going for Democracy sounds like a good idea anyway, and there isn't anything else pressing we need on the other branches (besides Astronomy to try and get some cities over on Russia's continent - hopefully we can swipe a luxury or two.)

Music Theory is also worthwhile, but Democracy first is probably more important. We can probably just keep some sort of wonder prebuild ready, and if the AIs ever research Music Theory, buy it off them and grab the wonder.

Is it worth the one turn of anarchy to get to Republic when we have to start researching towards Democracy? I dunno; that's up to the leader at the time :)

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 10, 2002 08:45 PM

320AD(0) - I wonder if we should be trying to secure some land on the russian continent. I can see silks which are accessible from a coastal city and Ivory and Dyes which are two cities back. I'm going to use our newest indian people two create a galley forgoing a 28 turn temple for now, and change Lisht to settler. Both of these cities are pretty corrupt and once our FP comes online they will easily make up the time. There is also lots of unexplored land over there and the possibility for wines and incense so we need to explore the rest. Its going to be pretty big risk, but I think it is worth it. Our core needs marketplaces so I'm going to switch Heliopolis to Marketplace. I MM Buto to get us 1 more sheild.

330AD(1) - I rush three temples to completion in the tundra. I switch to republic for a initial gain of 1 commerce and less corruption.

340AD(2) - ...

350AD(3) - ...

360AD(4) - The indians start sistene. The Galley gambit sets sail for russian silks.

370AD(5) - We are now at 60gpt up from 42gpt at the start of my reign.

380AD(6) - 66gpt

390AD(7) - Gambit will succeed or fail this turn.

We make it!

400AD(8) - Our settler/warrior boat makes the perilous journey and is on its way to the silks. 10 turns to FP.

410AD(9) - +79gpt

420AD(10) - Invention is discovered and traded so china and Russia have it we should get it next turn. Hopefully Theology is traded around next.

430AD(11) - Got Invention. We are not going to get Theology next turn, indians are holding on to it. I doubt we get Sistene. Delphi build's Sun Tzu.

440AD(12) - I try to get us to 10% lux but can't swing due to the FP being built.

450AD(13) - A Chinese galley is encroaching on our shore...

460AD(14) - Rush rush rush.... i have to unload our gambit galley boys because of a next turn barb attack.

470AD(15) - Gambit galley lives, our boys are back on board... LIsht is pissed... whoops.

480AD(16) - 88gpt

490AD(17) - Out Gambit Galley boys land and will found in two turns. I trade WM with the russians an now see an incense resource we could get.

500AD(18) - Our FP completes, we drop to 10% luxs and we are now +182gpt.

510AD(19) - Galley Gambit Boystown is founded and I rush a temple to get the two good food resources in its radius. This town must grow fast so we can rush some more settlers and grab the rest of the luxuries. Don't worry about Harbors yet because we will need Navigation to hook up to anything on this continent. Hopefully our Galley will survive the barbs next turn. If not, then we'll need to rush another Galley. We lose our galley to the barbs.

520AD(20) - One of the things I've been doing is maximizing production around Thebes because it is size twelve with excess food. This process needs to be finished by mining a few more plains. Russians grab the Ivory but maybe there is more.

Here's the save:

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 10, 2002 10:14 PM

Way to go Architect :goodjob:

I got it.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 10, 2002 11:40 PM

Keep the prebuild running - we can still get Sistine. We can research it ourselves in 4 turns if we need. And if not that, it'll be Leonardo's for sure.

And get a harbor rushed immediately at Galley Gambit: it needs the two-food water squares to grow and get out settlers.

Production at Thebes - good idea of course - if you have the worker turns to spare (not sure if we do), you can plant forests instead (same result), and harvest the shield bonuses later at Factory-building time.

Great turn! Republic was definitely a good call.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 11, 2002 12:38 AM

As for the Harbor in Galley Gambit, the second water square won't be as good as game on tundra (3 food) but it won't hurt either way and it'll give us veteran galleys to transport settlers around. But that's what I was thinking anyway.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 11, 2002 11:28 PM

520AD inherited turn: Rushed temple in Dacca. Warrior sent from Heliopolis to garrison Pithom which is wihtout a defender. Athribis, Kahun & Busiris switch from harbors to librarires.
530AD Pi-ramesses completes a market starts a library. Dacca builds a temple starts a library.
540AD Memphis builds a harbor starts a colosseum. Hieraconpolis completes a cathedral starts a library. Athribis completes a library starts a cathedral.
(I) We learn about theology and gunpowder.
Byblos completes a market and starts a colosseum.
550AD Thebes switched from Leo's to Sistine Chapel. Heliopolis switched from palace to Leo's.
(I) Alexandria & Lisht complete cathedrals and begin libraries. Giza completes a cathedreal and begins a colosseum.
560AD (I) Elephantine completes a colosseum and begins to outfit a settler.
570AD (I) Avaris completes aquaduct begins a library.
580AD (I) Pi-Ramesses completes a library begins a colosseum. Elephantine outfits a settler begins a barracks.
590AD (I) Bato completes a cathedral starts a library. Kahun completes a library starts a catherdral.
600AD (I) El-Amarna colosseum -> harbor. Memphis colosseum -> courthouse. Elephantine barracks -> pikeman. Alexandria library -> colosseum. Abydos marketplace -> cathedral. Asyut marketplace -> library.
610AD Russia just learned education (India has know it for several turns, but the GL has not yet given it to us. Looks like we get it interturn.
(I) We get education from the GL making it obsolete.
Hieracopolis library -> market.
620AD Start to study music theory (due in 15) Gandhi knows banking, but wants to much. Several cities switched from colosseum to university.
(I) Avaris library -> market. Galley Gambit harbor -> library (more of a pre build for whatever)
630AD (I) Elephantine pike -> university. Lisht library -> market.
650AD Mendes founded.
(I) Buto library -> marketplace. Pithom cathedral -> colosseum.
660AD (I) Alexandria colosseum -> marketplace.
670AD (I) Edfu library -> courthouse.
680AD (I) El-Amarna harbor -> university Hieracopolis market -> university. Asyut library -> harbor. Avaris market -> harbor. Mendes temple -> library.
690AD (I) India begins work on Copernicus
700AD Both Russia & India know astronomy.
(I) Alexandria market -> university. Giza university -> market. Byblos university -> colosseum. Mendes library -> courthouse.
710AD (I) Thebes builds the Sistine chapel starts on university.
mini cascade India -> Leo's, India -> coperinicus
720AD drop luxury rate to 0%. I have adjusted citizens in Edfu & Giza to prevent unhappiness. Also, I adjust tiles citizens of Dacca & Lisht are working for the same reason.

Heliopolis is due to build Leo's in 7 turns. However, we learn music theory in 6 turns. So we can swap into Bach's. If we do swap to Bach's remember to trade music theory before we build Bach's otherwise it is worthless. I did not start a pre build with the palace so if we lose Leo's we can swap back to palace temporarily.

Galley Gambit has finally reached a population level where it can build settler/worker etc. I did not do anything there this turn.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 12, 2002 12:09 AM

Based on info from the apollo program, we will not achieve a cultural win. However things are changing. As of 520 AD, the program projected that we would never reach 100,000 culture. As of 720AD we reach 100,000 in 1973.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 12, 2002 02:26 AM

Good turn, good progress.

Sistine is great. We want to make absolutely sure we get Bach's, and sooner rather than later is better so we can stop importing Gems from China. (Has that deal ended or been renegotiated at all in the last two turns?) I have no problem in letting India have Leonardo's to make sure we get Bach's ourselves. We want to slow AI progress as much as possible; they're terrible at Republic/Demo happiness management (they almost never run luxuries), and Bach's makes a great deal of difference to them.

Do start a Palace prebuild somewhere else (Memphis probably) - it could grab Copernicus, which would probably end any cascading, or turn into Wall Street or Adam Smith's or Magellan's. The current Heliopolis situation will be resolved soon; soon enough that another Palace prebuild wouldn't get big enough to be wasteful if Heliopolis did lose Leo's and needed to use the Palace.

I knew the game parameters gave us plenty of land to reach 100k culture. The question is whether someone else having half our culture will delay the win until somebody launches. (Diplo's disabled.) India's culture is indeed scary - they got some really fertile land, and Russia's progress is still very hard to gauge. I do hope India will eventually declare war, so we'll be Honorably justified in fighting back against some of their core cities, which would be nicely covered by our Forbidden Palace. Feel free to demand Indian boats vacate our territory if they ever wander into it.

Also, we can cram in one more city 3 squares SW of Thebes, on the river at the coast; every bit of culture helps. I didn't want to do it earlier because it would push every other core city farther down the corruption chain, but we could do it now.

I'd also suggest skimming settlers off any maxed-out size-12 cities. The moment we get Navigation or Magnetism, we should flood all available settlers over to Russia's continent. Slap down as many cities as we can, and just leave them there for a while. What we'll do is, once our Industrial cities build factories and have nothing else to build, have them build military to disband on Russia's continent to rush cultural buildings. (That's if nobody actually does go to war with us, of course.)

Still a very intriguing game...

Sirp, you're up, Exsanguination on deck.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 12, 2002 01:16 PM

Alexandria would be a good city to pre-build a wonder. It is on University right now which is sorta a pre-build.

We are still trading horses for gems to China, but the deal can be canceled at any time.

If anything we are hurting for resources. We do not have saltpeter and in scanning the map as is visible, I only saw 2 deposits of it.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 13, 2002 04:10 PM

Sirp, you're overdue to claim (and I know you're out there since you posted an RBCiv report yesterday :) ) Let's keep things moving.. Exsanguination, you may claim it; Sirp can still either claim it now or after Ex.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 13, 2002 08:25 PM

I'll get it in about an hour/90 mins if Sirp dosn't call it before then. I'll see if I can squeeze in 10 turns this time.

Jersey Joe - if Apollo predicts a 100k cultural win in 1973, then we're in good shape. I don't think all our cities have cathedrals/colosseums, the two big culture bringers along with universities and libraries. Once all our cities have them, it should be in the bag. Look at my Tounry 2-2 summary, I would have won a 20k cultural by 2000 in about 1700 (the SS race had begun), bu the game did not end until 1920ish.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 13, 2002 11:53 PM

0 - I look at the game and am amazed... in my current monarch game (around 890AD) I have almost the same culture and something like 1200 points... this makes me feel good. And India is riding our tail on the cultural front. At a loss of 43 gpt, I move the science slider to 20% and shave 3 turns off Music Theory.

1 - Lisht Market to Univ. Science to 40%, Music Theory in 1. Indians now have Chemistry.

2 - Music Theory to Astronomy, back to 10% science. India complte Copernicus'. Heliopolis switched to JS Bach's. Can get some nice deals on Music Theory - hold off for a couple turns. 5 to go... Begin planting a bunch of trees... I hate having too many workers. Move Heliopolian laborer to mountain, causing 2 food/turn starvation. Don't worry, its under control. Takes one turn off JS Bach's.

3 - Pi-Ramesses Univ to colosseum. Buto Market to Univ

4 - zzz

5 - Trading time: MT, World Map + 575g to India for Astronomy, Chemistry. MT to China for 18gpt. MT to Russia for World Map, 25g (everything they got). India has Banking, and Russia lacks Chemistry. Research PP at 20% science (10 turns). Asyut Harbor to Univ. Avaris Harbor to Caravel. Beijing completes Leo's - we wouldn't have gotten it anyhow... Lots of useless roading.

6 - Heliopolis compltes JS Bach's! Hooray! Starts Library. Wow, Navigation is expensive! Not buying it now... Investigate Bangalore - 36 turns to Magellan's. Alexandria put on palace prebuild for Magellan's.

sorry, gotta quit early. I wish I'd get it sometime on the weekend! :aargh: Oh well, theres my bit.

TH2 780AD

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 12:33 AM

Good turn. One question: you traded for both Astronomy and Chemistry from India. Did China have either? If so, you could have traded Music to them for it.

And we want Navigation to play land-grab on Russia's continent. Wow - are Explorers actually going to be usable?! :o

Sirp, I'm afraid I'll have to skip you. I'm leaving on vacation tomorrow morning, until Sunday night; I really want to get in this turn before I go. Unless you claim it by about 10 PM Eastern (and if you do please play tonight), I'll go ahead.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 14, 2002 12:47 AM

Originally posted by T-hawk
Good turn. One question: you traded for both Astronomy and Chemistry from India. Did China have either? If so, you could have traded Music to them for it.

I wanted to trade MT to India for Banking and get Chemistry oir Astro from China or Russia, but I've had bad experiences with 1.29. Tech devaluation is off the roof. In my most recent game as the Babs, I traded one tech to Greece for gpt + a tech, and when I tried to trade that same tech to Persia, they offered me their world map and nothing more. Had I traded to Persia first, I would have gotten a lot more from them (but not as much as from Greece).

It was a gamble, and I had to take it. I have question as I have run into this problem on the last two rounds (and in my games!): What do you do with workers once all the land is worked, and you don't have SP yet? I tend to road everything... or clear jungle. But is there something else I should be doing? (as you can see, I pretty much wasted most of the workers that turn)

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 02:46 AM

Good point about tech devaluation - it can be really extreme in a game like this. There's a huge gap between 2nd-of-4-civs and 3rd-of-4 prices. Plus the player buys tech at HIS cost, which on Emperor is 25% higher, but sells it at AI base costs.

As for workers, they can usually find some lumberjacking to do while waiting for railroads. Also, we can use them to help build settlers; a maxed-out size-12 city can build a settler, then on the next turn it grows back to 11 and a merged worker can take it right back to 12.

Sirp, I'm gonna have to skip you; I've got it, playing now.

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 14, 2002 04:18 AM

I'm really sorry; I've been rather sick lately, and to be honest I forgot all about this game. Go ahead and skip me. I will try to do better next time around.


Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 05:20 AM

Inherited turn:

Wow, that's a lot of content citizens. With Sistine, Bach's, and a colosseum in every city, there isn't an unhappy citizen in our entire empire!

With 2,000 in the bank and universities in most cities, we should be doing some research. I jump it to max on Printing Press, due in 2.

Hah, that lonely Chinese settler is in our territory and has been for, what, a millennium now? :)

Switch Memphis to settler and lose a few shields. It's got food to regrow, and we're going to need to land-grab on Russia's continent very soon.

Colosseums are cultural lightweights - Helio should've had a library before the colosseum.

Giza switched from market to colosseum.

Galley Gambit to worker; it's time to get those silks roaded up; we'll be able to Navigate ocean soon.

Rush the courthouse at Edfu; it'll get that fishing village from 3 to 6 shields.

Pithom colosseum to courthouse instead. Busiris also to courthouse.

I pay the 30 bucks to investigate Ganges in our southern tundra... it's only got a library (why in the world not a cheap temple?!), and 48 culture at 3/turn. Mendes will very soon overtake it - a big :goodjob: to whoever made that play.

790 AD: Printing Press comes in, and I trade it plus 530 gold to India for Navigation.

That means we can trade with Russia. I give them Navigation and Printing Press (optional techs - not getting Russia closer to rails) for Saltpeter (we want to get at least a few muskets) and Wines.

Hmm, a side effect: that made Russia able to trade their resources for Banking, so we trade Chemistry to Russia for Banking. (WOW - it's exactly even-up - if I ask for 1 gold we're "close to a deal"! :crazyeye: )

I do know that doing all that speeded the global tech pace, which really isn't what we want to do. But we really want to land-grab on Russia's continent as soon as possible, and now we can.

Alexandria swaps to Magellan's. I upgrade one spearman to musket so the AIs can fear it.

Research set to Democracy, due in 4.

800 AD: China wants to cancel Horses for Gems (wow, that took a long time.) I trade them Navigation for Gems instead; if I don't now, Russia immediately will.

820 AD: Our caravel leaves for Russian continent with a settler, a spearman, and an explorer. I'm going to get to use an explorer to explore for the first time in the history of Civ 3! :biggrin: Memphis starts a Palace as a prebuild for something-or-other.

830 AD: We get the Galley Gambit silks connected, and no fewer than TWELVE cities celebrate We Love The Queen Day!

Democracy comes in, and we revolt. This is an important fact: when you revolt from the "No, we are happy with Despotism" pop-up window, you effectively get a half-turn less of anarchy. The commerce income for this turn has already been calculated, so you only lose the city production for the turn (including culture, unfortunately.) So as a religious civ, it's like having only a half-turn of anarchy!

I will definitely NOT trade around Democracy, though. India has now discovered Physics, so that's where I set research. (Researching it ourselves still gets us the discounted cost, and funnels gold out of the global economy rather than into India's hands.)

Democracy does get the outer cities like Buto 2-3 more shields, and even gets Memphis down to 1 waste from 2.

860 AD: Bah. I got to use that Explorer for exactly one turn before a barb horse killed it. :P

870: Physics comes in. Russia doesn't have it yet, so I trade it to them for Ivory + 38 gold. Yeah, the ivory does zilch for us, but that's better than India getting some money or a lux off Russia for it.

We have the happiest empire I've ever seen: approval rating 90%, at zero percent luxuries! WLTQD Everywhere!

Set research to zero while waiting for somebody to research something that we can play follow-the-leader on. India researched Democracy, so it'll be a couple turns before they get something else new.

910 AD: We get Magellan's. No cascade.

930 AD: I'm getting tired of not researching. Set to Economics due in 4 turns at a surplus. Thebes starts a courthouse which is due in 4 turns as a prebuild for Smith's.

960 AD: Thebes switches over to Wall Street instead, which can complete sooner than Smith's and give about the same benefit.

970 AD: Memphis swaps its Palace to Smith's, and Elephantine starts another Palace prebuild. I expect this to become Newton's; Elephantine is a good place for it with several river squares and a mountain-gold tile.

Gandhi has 43 gold per turn to offer for Economics! I take that now while it's available. He can't possibly get Smith's first, and a cascade won't beat us to Newton's. Russia gives us Incense for Economics. We are HAPPY! 98% approval rating! (I know we don't need it, but the free lux deals just kept presenting themselves! :) )

980: Thunderhawk dies of overhappiness. Here's his dying instructions:

The best thing for us to do is play follow-the-leader research, to keep up in tech but funnel gold OUT of the global economy. We have one turn in on Magnetism right now and it's due in 3.

Stay over 1000 gold once Wall Street completes, yadda yadda yadda.

Do not worry about Shakespeare's. If an AI researches Free Artistry after we get Steam Power, and we can turn a prebuild into it, go ahead and research it; but failing any of those conditions don't bother.

I have a boat on the east side of Russia's vast jungle with a settler, and another boat heading to the west side. Don't use these settlers until we get Steam Power; then use them to grab the coal that's gotta be in that jungle somewhere.

Elephantine needs an irrigation on the grassland that it's using on its southwest side; workers are near there.


Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 05:24 AM

I'm off on my trip tomorrow morning; I'd rather not be skipped of course; this will probably get back to me on Saturday or Sunday, and it shouldn't be a problem to wait for me on Sunday night.

I suppose you guys can handle getting us railroaded and setting up the usual ToE-Hoover jump. :)

Remember the restrictions: no offensive action if we declare war; if someone else declares war we may raze/capture up to five cities. (Clarification: after capturing five cities, it's okay to keep bombarding more cities to attempt to destroy cultural improvements. Also, it's okay to accept any number of cities for peace anytime.)

T-hawk << just played
Architect << UP NOW
Jersey Joe << On Deck
Sirp << Hope He Feels Better
Exsanguination << Might Get To Play On A Weekend

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 14, 2002 12:09 PM

is that raze 5 cities AND capture 5 cities, or raze or capture 5 cities combined?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 02:03 PM

Actually - heh - razing cities (other than autorazing) is dishonorable, so it's just capturing 5 cities. :)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 14, 2002 04:13 PM

I have been thinking about the raze/capture 5 cities. We are probably better off using artillery to shell a city down to 1 pop and no improvements then letting it be. This would be about the same as razing/capturing them for culture purposes.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 14, 2002 04:35 PM

Well, the difference there is that we can't then use the city to build some of our own culture. So we will want to capture any Indian cities within two rings of Alexandria. But yeah, in any war (especially if Russia ever declares) we will probably want to keep bombarding as long as our government lets us hold out (or drop back to Monarchy). Universal Suffrage could be pretty important, so see if we can't have a prebuild ready for it.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 15, 2002 01:24 AM

I got it, but it won't be back until tomorrow at the earliest.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 17, 2002 06:01 AM

I just finished up lk29 and now I'm going to start this one unless you want to skip me. I won't have it back until tomorrow night. If I don't see anything by noon CST tomorrow I'll go ahead and play.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 19, 2002 01:38 AM

I'm not going to get to it like I thought. Skip me this turn..

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 19, 2002 01:51 AM

Jersey Joe is up

T-Hawk, are you back?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 19, 2002 10:05 AM

Back, and looks like the game waited for me. :) Either Architect or Joe can claim it; let's keep things rolling. Remember, even jumping in for 5 or so turns is better than skipping.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 19, 2002 01:04 PM

I am at work right now and will not claim the game for at least 10 hrs so if someone wants to claim it ahead of me go ahead.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 20, 2002 12:11 AM

Got it.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 21, 2002 03:30 AM

980AD inherited turn: MM size 12 cities with excess food to get a few extra shields. switch Galley Gambit to settler.
(I) We lose our saltpeter and wine. We now have 3 unhappy citizens. :(
India starts work on Smith's
990AD Russia does not have excess saltpeter to trade? Cathy wants to much (furs + silk + gold) for wines so I do not trade with her.
(I) We lose are gems trade. India and Russia begin work on Newton's.
1000AD The other civs seem a little to greedy to me so I do not trade for luxuries. Besides this might hurt them more than us, we still only have 3 unhappy citizens.
(I) Mao demands we give him furs, I ask for gems in return. Mao refuses, we do not get a trade. China starts Smith's. We learn about magnets and start on ToG.
1010AD - 1030AD same old, same old watch many Indian ships sailing around our continent.
1030AD (I) India begins work on Shakespeares.
1040AD (I) We learn ToG start on free artistry.
1050AD Thebes swaped from Wall St to Newton's. Elephantine from Palace to Wall Street (to be swapped to Shakespeares)
1070AD (I) Massive barbarian uprising in Russia; One of our towns gets ransacked multipule times and we lose about 200 gold. We lose our supple of Ivory.
1080AD Renegotiate for wines from russia costs us furs + 171 gold.
(I) We learn Free Artistry start on Metalurgy
1090AD (I) Thebes builds Newton's starts on Wall Street. Elephantine swapped to Shakespeares.
1100AD - 1120AD work on building infrastucture.
1120AD (I) Learn metalurgy start on Steampower.
1130AD we build Smith's
1160AD we build Shakespeares.
(I) we Lose supple of Spices.
1180AD We hook up a source of Saltpeter.
1200AD We discover Steam Power and start on Industrialization. We have at least 2 sources of coal. With one already hooked up and .... Giza can build the Iron Works :D

I was using the ship by Galley Gambit to ferry settlers which I rushed in Galley Gambit.

The ship off shore by El-Ashmunein has a settler etc on it. I was toying with the idea of building a town on the peninsula southeast of the Indian town of New Hyderabad to try and flip it.

Also, I do not have any roads from our nation hooked up with the Indian town of Ganges on purpose. I do not think it is a happy town and it might be easier to flip if it does not have access to its mother country via our road net.

Giza should get some priority in getting Rails to get the Iron Works done.

Alexandria is on palace as pre-build for Suffrage.

We need workers over by our Russian continent towns. My intention for the one worker there was to road to Smells Nice and the incense to get us a luxury back.

I also built up our defensive army a little. I did not bother to upgrade units, I used the coins to buy culture.

As of 1200AD, Apollo shows that we will never get a culture win. We do get to 100,000 in 1854 which is about 100 years better than last time I looked, We need many more towns to add to our culture.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 21, 2002 03:37 AM

What is this Apollo thing I keep hearing about?

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 21, 2002 01:02 PM

It is a utility program written by Lovro that estimates culture.

You can find it here: Apollo

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 21, 2002 02:02 PM

I'm sorry, whose go is it now? Mine?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 21, 2002 02:39 PM

Good turn, good progress, as always when Joe plays. :)

Iron Works - neat! I've never gotten to build one yet. Pity Giza can't build Hoover, but now it's the leading candidate to build ToE (or Suffrage if Alexandria swaps to ToE which I'd rather have sooner.) Do note that all of Giza's mined tiles are mountains, meaning it'll take a lot of worker-turns to get more shield production; rails there can wait a bit.

The road connection (for luxury happiness) has no effect on flipping, so don't worry about that. What will cause Ganges to flip is tiles within its 21-radius under our control; our superior civ-wide culture; and its relative proximity to our capital.

Either Architect (swapping with Joe) or Sirp (skipping Arch) may take it now.

Author : LKendter
Date : Aug 21, 2002 03:02 PM

Actually, luxury connect is CRITICAL. Unhappy people greatly increase the chance of a city flipping to you. The overall happy level of a city is a factor in flipping. It is one of the reason large captured cities flip so much - 4 resistors give up and become miserable people.

One time I cut the only road to a foreign city - it flipped to me the very next turn.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 21, 2002 03:14 PM

If I remember correctly, Giza could use rails on the irrigated land so it could move a citizen from the sea to the mountains.

If the number of citizens in a city figures into the flipping equation then, the road connection has an indirect effect on the flipping calculation. Ganges dropped from size 4 to size 3 after the connection was severed.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 21, 2002 03:35 PM

Not according to the published Firaxis formula. According to that, only citizens of a foreign nationality count (resisters count double), regardless of happiness. There's no Egyptian citizens in Ganges, of course.

Ganges probably did starve due to unhappiness (unless someone saw it build a worker), but heck, it's to our advantage to let it hit size 6. It's a hopeless 1-shield city for India at any size, so it may as well be big when we take it over. :)

Either SIRP or ARCHITECT may take it now.

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 21, 2002 11:28 PM

I will be able to play in about 12 hours. If Architect posts got it before then, he can take it instead.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 22, 2002 01:33 AM

I finally got a chance to peek at the save. What's with the cities on wealth? Get them building some units, as Factory prebuilds if nothing else. Whatever we don't need to defend at home can be disbanded overseas to help rush culture (it only takes two muskets to make a temple.)

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 22, 2002 01:10 PM

sorry but I won't be able to play for another 24 hours; architect is welcome to go before then if he wants.

hmm...cities on wealth? ack! I have never, ever put a city onto wealth. It's a dubious move.

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 24, 2002 01:59 AM

ok playing right now!

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 24, 2002 03:38 AM

We discovered industrialization in my turn and began building factories in all core cities. I chose not to trade it with the other civs. Let them all discover nationalism, and we'll just skip it, going straight to replacable parts.

Made sure we had a surplus to build up to 1000 gold for full interest benefit. Hooked up our incense supply and the next turn Russia cancelled our luxuries deal with them for some reason.

Towards the end of my turn the Chinese surprise attack us, capturing To Dye For and razing it to the ground. Not good. I see that the other civs would be happy to sign alliances against the Chinese if we give them industrialization; they'll even throw nationalism and military tradition into the bargain. But, I decline. India is already our biggest cultural opponent, and they'd probably crush China. We don't want the Indians becoming more powerful. We also don't want to waste some of our city-taking opportunities taking Chinese cities when we might want to attack India later on. So I think it's best to just ride this war out defensively, until Mao decides to be a little more reasonable and talks to us.



Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 24, 2002 06:55 AM

Good progress.

Capturing cities are allowed for 5 per war per enemy civ, so we may take 5 Chinese cities without affecting any later India war. But we're at that point on the tech tree when conquest is very difficult, so yeah, go ahead and ride it out defensively. (Recapturing our own cities like To Dye For won't count against the limit either.)

Exsanguination <<< UP NOW
T-hawk <<< On Deck

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 24, 2002 07:14 AM

ohhh sorry, I thought it was a total of five cities for the entire game.

Also, couldn't we just make war, capture five cities, make peace, then after 20 turns go to war again and capture 5 more cities? Is that ok?

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 24, 2002 03:12 PM

5 per war? man... new things just keep popping up! :confused:

Got it.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 24, 2002 06:00 PM

TH2 - 1345 AD

0 - Chinese Galleon approaches Bubastis (defended by one warrior). We're about to lose a couple cities. I may have to rush a spearman in Slik Snatch and delay the harbor. Neither India nor Russia will budge on Nartionalism. Move slider back one, RP in 5 @ +60 gpt. We also need a 'lil cash to buy stuff.

1 - Many factories produced, mostly put to knights (nothing else, and we NEED military). They should become Cavalry soon. Peace is made with China (peace for peace only). Now we can save a couple cities! If you chop down all forests on plains and then mine them/RR them you get an extra shield - thought I'd mention that since no one has seemed to do this. I have started doing this around Thebes. The mines can irrigated also if they ever need to be. Trade India Furs/343g/WM for Military Tradition; they become gracious.

2 - Wow! China is polite! All of a sudden EVERY city goes off WLTK and a couple go into disorder - when and why did this happen? I didn't see any trade deals end and I luxuries were never on... Something isn't right. Harbor rushed in Silk Snatch - apparently, we NEED it. Push slider down again at no loss to research.
***note: mmm... apparently we already HAD silks. Why was a harbor being built in Silk Snatch then? :smoke: on both parts.

3 - India declared war on the Chinese! Sorry, Sirp! :lol: Well, lets see what happens here... raise luxuries to 10% and pull down science 10% (RP still in 2).

4 - Move some ships into place to watch some battles :ak47:. Many cities into WLTKD.

5 - We discover Replaceable Parts. Start research on Medicine in 7 turns @ 50% (+33gpt). We complete Universal Suffrage in Alexandria!

You'll notice I'm producing a lot of artillery and muskets/cavalry. We NEED military for a couple reasons - 1) If someone pulls a China, or 2) so we can deal some damage when necessary :ak47::ak47:. I chose to research Medicine so we can get Sanitation, and size 13+ cities. Personally, I never go for Replaceable Parts off the bat (then again, I never realized you could get it so quickly) and go SP - Medicine - Sanitation. But that's just me, and I'm the Emperor rookie :). The settler by Boystown should go one tile SE so it can get the whales and the fish upon expansion. That'll be a nice fishing town.

I can play another 5 turns tonight if you all want, but not at the present. T-Hawk if you want to take it now, go right ahead. I'll call it this evening again if no one else has.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 24, 2002 06:30 PM

Suffrage - well, I was hoping that'd turn into either ToE or Hoover, but it's good to have it now and deny it to India.

The riots - what happened is that our civilization was experiencing "negative war weariness", which often happens when another civilization declares war on you, especially one that's long been at peace like China has. When you made peace, we no longer had that extra boost of happiness.

India vs China, eh? Well... we'll see what happens. I wonder if that might drag on long enough for India to collapse into communism. The AIs only make peace when the losing one can offer enough, and China might not have anything to offer. It probably won't speed India's culture significantly, since most of China's cities are far from India's palace, and now India's resources will get diverted into war instead of infrastructure.

I usually have a Palace and Suffrage prebuilding, timed to complete just as Scientific Method does, and then the two wonders become ToE and Hoover. I'll take the game now, and see if I can't set up a ToE-Hoover jump. I think Giza can build ToE pretty quick with the Iron Works, but Hoover will take a tad longer.

That's an interesting idea to beeline to Rep Parts and skip Nationalism. I never thought of that! We can definitely get by without Nationalism if we've got Rep Parts - and in 1.29f, it seems that Nationalism is actually more expensive than RP.

Got it.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 24, 2002 06:34 PM

Um, I think your upload got screwed up; it's listed as 0 bytes on the server and after I downloaded it...

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 24, 2002 07:46 PM

Try the file agian, T-Hawk... apparently it was an empty zip file (???).

About ToE and Hoover - sorry I forgot about that - but remember we're playing a culture game so Universal Suffrage is more important than Hoover's (albeit by a tiny margin). We can always build solar plants or hydro plants later.

This is the thing I dislike about SGs - one doesn't become personalized with the game like they would in a personal game (unless they study it like they would for midterm :lol: ). But I still think we can pull it off - the AI is pretty lsow with factories (in my experience) and rabid on hospitals.

Take a look at my website and read my 2-2 summary (Monarch diff.). I got all three - Suffrage, ToE, AND Hoover's (Hoover's/Suffrage in same city). You'll see I had about 10 cities whereas India and Egypt had 30 or maybe even 40. It's not impossible, I think we can pull it off.

Good luck!

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 24, 2002 09:08 PM

Oh, we're not in danger of not getting Hoover; it's just the sooner the better for that powerful a wonder. :)

The file worked this time, got it for real. :)

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 25, 2002 12:51 AM

Inherited turn:

Now that we have Replaceable Parts, let's see where the rubber is. We don't have any hooked up yet. Wow, Russia's almost got a monopoly on it. They have three sources. We have one, outside Salt Mines near Galley Gambit; let's get that hooked up.

Giza swaps to Palace to prebuild for Theory of Evolution. Thebes is by far our next best shield producer. I'll have it build a coal plant, and it will be the designated Hoover-builder. Unfortunately, it can't prebuild, but it will still be able to knock out Hoover in about 11 turns from scratch.

I peel workers off a few full-food maxed-out cities; we could use some more.

Change the military producers over to artillery. Cavalry will go obsolete; infantry have the same attacking power, much better defense, and can upgrade later. If we do go attacking India, we're going to be doing it the slow way, with artillery.

Rush temples in all the eastern cities that don't have them yet (they're by far the best culture for the dollar), and change a couple to workers to get stuff connected over there.

Diplomacy check: nothing to do, good.

1350 AD: Wow, these are some awesomely fast workers! Single turn to lay rails on flatland, or even to mine it. :cool:

Hah, China conquers Ganges from India! Has there ever been a city more dead meat for a cultural flip? :)

1355: Thanks to building a courthouse, Thebes has exactly 80 shields to put out an artillery every turn, until it can start building Hoover. Neat.

Russia and India got Medicine before we did, but China didn't. I trade it to China for Gems; better us than someone else, and that'll get our cities back into WLTKD.

With the rubber connected and some Infantry built, I decide to modernize the military, and disband most of our warriors and spearmen. It isn't worth the gold to upgrade them, given our massive production and that we want to use cash to rush cultural buildings.

1370: Russia and India sign MPP! Checking the Honorable rules... If one of them declares war on us, and we attack them in a way that triggers the MPP, it is dastardly if the declaration of war breaks an obligation of ours in a trade deal. So before we attack anyone involved in an MPP, make sure we do not have any ongoing commitments to the other half of the MPP.

I sell the bank in Thebes. It can now use the bank to get two turns of prebuilding towards Hoover Dam. Which is more valuable, 12 turns of bank in Thebes (~60 gold), or two turns of Hoover production nationwide? :)

1385: Russia declares war on China! Hmm, looks like we should've stayed in that war to take our piece of the action. Oh well, we will stay Honorably above the fray.

Sci Method comes in, Theory of Evolution completes, giving us the usual Atomic Theory and Electronics. Hoover Dam due in 8. Sanitation next up.

Russia and India got Sci Method, but China didn't, so I trade it to them for 16 gpt.

1415: Sanitation comes in, cities swapped to hospitals. I decide to trade around Atomic Theory (which is pretty useless) because I can get 158 gpt from Russia, 88 gpt plus Nationalism from India, and Communism from China. I shut off research and we're at +775 gold/turn. Now is the time to cash rush every last bit of culture we can anywhere.

China and India make peace. I think India took one city from China. And India is in Communism!

1425: Hoover Dam completes.

1430: Russia and China make peace.

1435: Thunderhawk V retires.

Not many notes this time. I assembled our Stack of Doom in Alexandria if we ever need to use it. Watch out for the MPPs if we do get in any wars. Don't bother trying to research anything right now - just accumulate the cash and rush culture. When someone else researches something (probably The Corporation), then we can play follow-the-leader research.

I demanded that India leave our territory a few times and he went down to Cautious; a few more and he might actually declare war?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 25, 2002 12:52 AM


Architect <<< Up Now
Jersey Joe <<< On Deck

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 26, 2002 08:43 PM

Got it. Only gonna play 10 turns this time.

Author : Architect
Date : Aug 27, 2002 03:11 AM

1435AD(0) - rushing improvements
1440AD(1) - rushing improvements
1445AD(2) - I notice some cities with sub optimal improvements. A bunch of non-sheilded grasslands are irrigated.
1450AD(3) - rushing improvements
1455AD(4) - rushing improvements. Renegotiate for gems... silks + furs + 350 gold. Rather not give tech at this time for anything...
1460AD(5) - Espinage is now available and Electronics has been discovered and passed around between india and china.
1465AD(6) - Battlefield Med completes. I buy Espinoage for 900 gold and start our Intelligence Agency in Giza.
1470AD(7) - I fortify a bunch of workers in the homeland as there is nothing left to do. I guess we could move them to another continent but I don't see the value right now. India and chinese go to war again.
1475AD(8) - Rushing..
1480AD(9) - Rushing..
1485AD(10) - Alexandria goes into disorder.. whoops.


Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 27, 2002 12:56 PM

I am not going to be able to take my turn until tomorrow, so if someone wants to swap places with me feel free.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 27, 2002 03:31 PM

Yep, keep on plugging along. Good catch on optimizing the terrain improvements; I started but didn't finish. Also remember that our cities are pretty tightly packed, and most should be leveled off at sizes 14-16 or so; with a few select ones (Thebes, Alexandria, Giza) allowed to hit 20.

Russia's culture is starting to get large; we might want to start demanding everyone leave our territory all the time and see if someone does dare challenge our supremacy. :)

With the intelligence agency, remember that any use of it other than planting a spy and investigating cities is considered Dishonorable.

Oh, and we can definitely put one more city on the river SW of Thebes now, to grab the three or so unused land tiles and some more water, and to build culture.

Sirp, you can take it and swap with Joe if you've got time today (or tomorrow, or whatever month it is Down Under :) )

Author : T-hawk
Date : Aug 30, 2002 03:22 PM


Jersey Joe <<< Overdue
Sirp <<< Take it if you can

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 31, 2002 12:22 AM

I will be able to play in a few hours. If Jersey Joe hasn't claimed by then I'll post a got it.

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 31, 2002 07:23 AM

ok, playing now!

Author : Sirp
Date : Aug 31, 2002 09:10 AM

nothing much happened on my turn, other than rushing more and more cultural buildings. I played to 1525AD. We're now getting 615 culture per turn, and this rate is accelerating at the rate of about 6 culture per turn per turn, but this acceleration will stop as soon as we run out of cities to rush in. We might have to expand aggressively soon.

We currently have 53036 culture, and India has around 39200 culture. Without war, there is no way we're going to slow down their culture enough to win for a long, long time.

Our colonies were very weakly defended, so I moved some infantry, cavalry and artillery over by ship.

I suggest we work out India's five most cultured cities, and go get em.



Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 31, 2002 03:12 PM

got it

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Aug 31, 2002 03:21 PM

Sorry for the delay, had some problems with another SG (LK26). T-hawk, I could take a turn after Ex if you want or wait till my normal spot.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 31, 2002 04:18 PM

0 -Entertainer switched to Scientist in Buhen. We can now research at 0 science. Trade furs+silks+WM+205g to India for The Corporation. Russia has Steel but asks for way too much. Looking at our military, we are NOT ready for war of any kind. We have loads of infantry, but only 10 cavalry. The best choice here is to wait out Motorized Transportation, then mass build tanks. Tanks + artillery cannot be stopped until computers come around.

1 - Many infantry produced. Those cities are set to train cavalry, very useful in pre-Modern wars for picking off weak enemy units. Couple buildings rushed. Not much...

2 - Russia is up to something and India is trampling all over our overseas territory. Alexandria goes into disorder... whoops.

3 - Russia and India sign an alliance against China :flamedevi

4 - India and Russia sign an MPP. Not good. I set Pi-Ramesses to build Palace (see below).

5 - Thebes goes into disorder.

I chose to set Pi-Ramesses to a palace because it is located almost EXACTLY in the middle of our empire. Although it wouldn't make a drastic changes, it probably would help reel in the edxtra few shields needed to build several units in one instead of 2 turns. It's only been building for one turn, so T-Hawk, if you want to veto it, you can with no shield loss (unless you build a swordsman :rolleyes: ). I reccomend building many (~20) galleons and then performing a mass upgrade when Combustion comes around. I didn't notice how much gold we had accumulated (wow) so a bunch of rush-builds should probablyhappen as well.

Also, I think we should join in one the war with China. Why? We can bring in a couple extra cities, AND get some basses on India's mainland for any war. Since India and Russia have an MPP, I doubt war is feasible quite yet. We can grab Ganges from China now before India does (they just landed a force outside the city) and claim our entire homeland to ourselves. It's all yours, T-Hawk.

PS - sorry about the disorders :smoke:

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Aug 31, 2002 04:20 PM

File Upload Server not working.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 02, 2002 08:09 PM

It's not an Honorable war unless China declares on us, and I rather doubt they'd do that now. But the AIs are getting restless as they always seem to do in the Industrial Age, so it should be only a matter of time until one of the big two does declare on us.

Joe, if you want you may jump back in for your skipped turn, since I don't think I'm going to get to it before about Thursday.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 03, 2002 12:59 PM

Okay, I will grab this when I get home from work.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 04, 2002 01:35 AM

got it.

Author : Sirian
Date : Sep 04, 2002 01:06 PM

Some quiet encouragement and happy cheers from the stands. :) Keep at it, guys! Death before Dishonor! :D

- Sirian

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 04, 2002 02:55 PM

Heh, I'd been wondering if you were lurking out there ;) Thanks for the encouragement :goodjob:

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 05, 2002 04:25 AM

1550AD inherited turn: Rush 2 colosseums, 1 cathedral & 1 university. Rush some settlers, some very large cities set to produce settlers to skim off excess population. All cavalry productino changed to infantry. Cancel palace in Pi-Ramesses, switch it to infantry.
(I) India takes back Ganges Was hoping for us to flip it. India gets back its old culture in Ganges. :(
1555AD South Thebes founded.
1575AD (I) China & India make peace. We lose 2 spots I was going to settle to the Indians :mad:
1580AD Trade Sanitatino to Mao for 22 gold (his entire treasury) + 14 gpt
1585AD (I) The wise citizens of Ganges deside that they are sick of eating curry and ask to join our empire of course I welcome them and begin rushing cultre buildings there.
1590AD - 1605AD building cities and culture.
1610AD With the founding of Desert Inn my term in office ends.

I did not really have much to report. Spent the years by founding several cities and rushing culture. To rush the culture mostly I was disbanding infantry in the cities before cash rush.

There is a settler fortified on our main continent. Also, there is a settler and 2 infantry onbard a galleon which I was going to sail north up the coast of Russia and settle in an open spot.

China got hit hard by both India and Russia and is down to 2 cities. There is land availible on the main continent to settle where old Chinese cities used to be.
But it would be "in the cracks" of the smal Indian cities.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 05, 2002 03:07 PM

China dead, eh? Yeah, we'll see what land we can poach in there.

Got it, but may not get to it till tomorrow night.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 05, 2002 04:38 PM

I figure we need a minimum of 10 more cities (unless the AIs raze each others cities). The ideal would be to capture the 5 oldest from each of Russia and India and to be able to hold them.

Author : Sirp
Date : Sep 05, 2002 11:25 PM

I'm going away for the weekend; if my turn comes up, feel free to skip me.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 07, 2002 02:04 AM

I don't think I'll be able to play till Sunday, and post Monday morning, but I'll get it then... have patience, RL is still somewhat weird for me ATM.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 07, 2002 02:15 AM

What about me :lol:? Hmpf...

If you want me to, I'll play. :sad:

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 07, 2002 05:14 AM

You just played right before Joe :) The last round, Joe got skipped and wound up at the end, after you before me. Here's the roster, and I think we're in order right now:

T-hawk <<< UP NOW
Jersey Joe

Sorry for any confusion :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 07, 2002 04:35 PM

Oh :crazyeye: I thought you played after I did so I thought the turn order was reset... I must be off in another world!

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 09, 2002 03:48 PM

Got a few turns done, will finish tonight, as I'd like to man the helm during this critical juncture...

Inherited turn:

Rushed a couple more cathedrals; all else looks good.

1615 AD: Wow, Russia got Radio. We'll still finish it at minimum science.

The real enemy here isn't India; it's Russia. We're gaining on India's culture fairly rapidly, but Russia's still gaining on us in fact. They just got WAY too much land, and I have a hunch they wound up with a good Forbidden Palace location too.

1625 AD: I demand Russia withdraw, as I've been doing each of the last few turns - and the Russkies declare war! Okay, here we go! Unfortunately, we're going to lose some ground before we gain any - we can't possibly defend everything on our long long border with Russia on their continent. (Clarification: retaking our own cities during a war won't count against the 5 limit.)

India will not join an alliance against Russia at any price. I'd really like for India to join us in the war, though...

Russia razes New Giza. Cossacks march down towards Salt and Rubber Mines; losing our rubber supply would really suck...

1630: India still won't sign alliance, but they WILL sign MPP. India's also MPPed with Russia, so I have to be careful not to attack any Russian units in Russian or neutral territory.

And what the #%&?! - War weariness is at 38% already in Thebes!! Well, lux to 20%.

At end of turn, Russia attacks us and triggers the MPP: India declares war on Russia! Good. And we don't lose any cities. I've gotten enough infantry over that anything connected by rail to the eastern ports is in no danger, but the western part including Rubber Mines could be in big trouble. But I did get walls built in Rubber Mines and every other imperiled city.

1635: Galleons are speeding eastward from Buto towards Rubber Mines. Rubber has two infantry and a spear, behind walls, that are going to need to defend against five cossacks and a handful of knights and swords.

Russia buys China into an alliance against India, heh. There goes China.

Our MPP with India causes us to declare war on China. In this war, WE are considered the aggressor, so it is Dishonorable if we take action against Chinese territory or units in it. I don't think that'll be a problem with China down to two cities, though. :)

Salt and Rubber Mines holds out - the cossacks bypassed it and continued going south. Phew.

Also, Russia razed an Indian city, giving us control of a second dyes.

1645: Our position seems stabilized, although it's still going to take a lot more troops to completely secure the Rubber Mines - Galley Gambit area. I start stacking up troops to capture Magnitogorsk. It's not a core Russian cultural city, but it's in a very important strategic location in that it will let us link by rail our eastern and western holdings on Russia's continent. And it controls Ivory, which I think makes it worthwhile to take.

More to come tonight...

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 10, 2002 01:28 AM

1645-1660: Still desperately playing shuffle-the-forces in the Galley Gambit area trying to defend all the cities. In 1660, two galleons full of fresh infantry arrive, and the area is secure.

Also in 1655, New Hyderabad (it's next to our eastern entry point on Russia's continent) helpfully flips to us.

And in 1660, we capture Magnitogorsk. As I outlined in the last post, it's worthwhile to take as one of our allowed conquests because of its strategic importance and Ivory.

In 1665, thanks to our uberworkers, we've got rails complete all across the southern coastline of Russia. That's the link we need to send through artillery and cavalry, and I clean up over a dozen cossacks and another dozen knights/pikes/swords that are there.

It's now time to begin pushing at targeted Russian cities. I would suggest we capture Minsk, St. Petersburg, Moscow, and Odessa. These four should all be old, cultured Russian cities, and this is important: if we control those four, there is no overlap between them and any other Russian city except for one square at Moscow, so cultural reversion will be minimized. (Remember that starving out foreign citizens is Dishonorable.)

The mountain square outside New Asyut is a great launching point to invade Russia; artillery can move from anywhere and fire on Minsk from there in the same turn. Get Minsk bombarded down to size 12, or maybe even 6, before we attack, of course - cavalry attacking infantry gets very very bloody even with the infantry bombarded to 1 hp. We may want to produce another dozen or two cavalry before attacking it, too.

War weariness is taking its toll; it will be very difficult to get all the Russian cities we want without losing the Democracy. If so, I can only recommend we go back to Monarchy and stay there, if we want to continue bombarding other Russian cities to destroy their culture. Don't flip back and forth if we can help it, since every time we do that is a turn of cultural production lost.

Take it away, Architect!

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 10, 2002 01:29 AM


Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 10, 2002 01:21 PM

T-Hawk, don't we have to remain at war with Russia until our MPP with India runs out?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 10, 2002 03:17 PM

Um, do we? I'm honestly unsure whether making peace within 20 turns of an MPP triggering affects your reputation. (We'll count doing so as not dishonorable if it doesn't.)

Sirian, you still watching here?

Author : LKendter
Date : Sep 10, 2002 03:44 PM

When you sign the peace treaty it breaks the MPP in the process. This is clearly a broken treaty - my gut feeling says it hurts your rep. I have made peace during a mpp, and the previous mpp partner almost always goes furious.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 10, 2002 11:39 PM

I'm taking a very short civ3 sanity break for the next couple days (until Friday, when school is out), so if my turn pops up before then you can skip me. Good luck!

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 11, 2002 02:41 AM

Got, but won't be till tomorrow I have it back.

Author : Erik Mesoy
Date : Sep 11, 2002 11:23 AM
Title : Just a note!

From a monarch player...
Signing a peace deal will not break the MPP.
BUT if the MPP reactivates, the peace treaty is broken.
Of course, you can pull MPP stunts like getting concessions from someone and giving them gpt, then using their mpp to force them to declare war again.
So it might be ok to send up troops, block off the mpp guy and the enemy from one another, then sign peace so they cannot attack, thus not being able to trigger mpp.

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 12, 2002 03:55 AM

For some reason, I just can't muster the will to play Civ today. I'll have to play tomorrow night instead.

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 15, 2002 12:02 PM

1670AD(0) - I survey the scene and make some changes. We have WAY to many infantry already so I change all military production to artillery for a few turns. I mobilize all the remaining troops on the home continent and leave a single defender in each city. The AI will never pose a threat to our homeland that can be defended quickly now with rails and the draft. our culture is 73823
1675AD(1) - We disconnect a russian coal source. Road completed to the mountain outside minsk. Let the bombardment begin. I gather all artillery on the russian continent and let it fly against minsk. We destroy many of Minsk's improvements but only reduce the city to size 17.
1680AD(2) - Minsk is reduced to size 14 and all its improvements have been destoyed. Our SOD marches towards the mountain outside minsk to help in its capture in two turns.

1685AD(3) - Our culture is 76252. At this rate, we win in 29 turns. Is this war worth it? Madras 2 flips to us. Minsk is reduced to size 5...

1690AD(4) - We capture Minsk. Our second strike force lands near Moscow. I disband some Infantry to complete a few more cultural buildings.

1695AD(5) - The assault on Odessa begins. Moving troops into position to take St. Peterburg.
1700AD(6) - Odessa reduced to size 7. Our democracy is barely holding. I've been very careful not to lose troops but its not making much difference anymore...
1705AD(7) - Odessa falls. I look closer at our rate to victory and look over the victory conditions and notice that to win a cultural victory at 100,000 you must have more than twice the amount of culture as another civ. This will make our victory very difficult.
1710AD(8) - Moving troops into position around St. Petersburg.
1715AD(9) - More of the same.
1720AD(10) - Big attack next turn on St. Petersburg. Been doing some pillaging around moscow. Fortified some artillery back in our main part of the russian continent so don't miss it. I've been using it to pick apart the few forces russian sends in to "attack" us.

There is also a pretty big force on the main continent. Do with these as you will. We don't need them on the russian continent.


Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 16, 2002 01:38 PM

I will start on my turns tonight when I get home from work.

Some questions regarding 5 city conquest limit.
1) If I capture St. Pete & Moscow making 5 cities total, can I accept cities from Russia as part of a Peace Treaty?
2) If after we make peace with Russia one of the 5 captured cities flips back (say Moscow). If we have another war with Russia can we capture another Russian city?
3) If we "gift" a captured city to the Chinese can we capture another Russian City? (I would think not).
4) If we give a captured city back to Russia, in a subsequent war may we capture another Russian city?
5) Having captured 5 cities from Russia, may we later on capture the Russian capital (and at the end of the war give it back) to prevent a spaceship launch?

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 16, 2002 02:03 PM

Am I the only one who didn't realize a 100,000 point cultural win requires you have not only 100,000 but TWICE as much culture as any other civ?

After my turn I end turned ahead till we got to 100,000 and we don't win...

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 16, 2002 03:35 PM

1. Yes, you may accept cities. The 5 is meant to be a limit on aggression, in that we can damage someone who attacks us but can't just go wiping them out.

2. Once peace is made, any future war allows another 5 cities conquested before peace is made again. If the Russians insist on attacking us again, we're justified in retaliation. (Do note that actions such as demanding withdrawal that may cause a civ to declare war are off-limits during the 20 turns of a peace treaty; if you do that you step into a Phony Peace Treaty exploit as per the RBCiv rules.)

3. Nope. :)

4. See #2.

5. See #2 - yes, if they declare the war.

Architect - yup, you may be the only one :) The goal was (is) to make that happen before anyone else grabs a spaceship or 20k win (diplo is disabled), so there's definitely still some uncertainty here.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 16, 2002 03:41 PM

And as for the game...

What I'd strongly suggest is to not attack Moscow and St. Petersburg any more until we're sure we can capture them both on the same turn - and then make peace and our Democracy will survive. Government failure occurs only during the city-production phase of your turn.

And now Russia has been taken down a peg, but India still lurks... Will we be able to outbuild India's culture enough without war, or do we want to start demanding India withdraw whenever we can? Also note that if India were to declare war right now, we'd get a negative war weariness boost - perhaps enough to tide the government over during the Russian war! :)

Finally, do remember that starving citizens when avoidable is Dishonorable, so keep a BIG anti-flip garrison around :) (We have superior culture of course, but those cities will still have a high flip chance from the distance-to-capitals factor.) We may build workers and settlers to get the Russian population out of the cities, which might be a very good idea.

Also remember to cancel the MPP with India when we can if that hasn't been done already.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 16, 2002 05:34 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
Finally, do remember that starving citizens when avoidable is Dishonorable, so keep a BIG anti-flip garrison around :) (We have superior culture of course, but those cities will still have a high flip chance from the distance-to-capitals factor.)

Actually, in my most recent Epic Game I have about 2-3x the culture of "Mike", but his cities keep flipping back to him. In fact, what started the war was that one of my cities flipped to him in the first place!

This is somewhat of a philosophical question, but its been killing me since I started the Epics (I may post this in the RBCiv Forum):

While it is considered dishonorable to declare war - and honorable to have war declared on you - shouldn't demanding a civ leave, with the intention of having him/her declare war essentially declaring war yourself? I see this as a loophole that can be used to your advantage. Seeing all the exploits mentioned in the RBCiv rules, I'm surprised Sirian hasn't considered this an exploit. You're saving your own behind by making the AI (which doesn't know your intentions) fall for your trap. What's your opinion on this?

But, yeah - getting that 2x culture is going to be pretty tough. Good luck!


Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 16, 2002 06:27 PM

While it is considered dishonorable to declare war - and honorable to have war declared on you - shouldn't demanding a civ leave, with the intention of having him/her declare war essentially declaring war yourself? I see this as a loophole that can be used to your advantage.

The reason that's fair game is that you have a right to sovereignty within your own borders. Trespassing upon another nation without permission is an act of defiance tantamount to war, after all. And the other civ DOES have the choice to withdraw rather than declare, and they often will.

Unfortunately, there's two flaws in the game. First, the AIs are programmed to have no respect for the player's borders even after multiple repeated withdrawals. Second, they will always eventually declare war after enough withdrawal requests. Those add up to being able, most of the time, to conduct Honorable war where you still dictate the time, place, and terms. It's a lamentable aspect of the AI design, but you can't get around those two facts.

As for RBCiv, it's been accepted as the Honorable way to wage war all along, ever since Epic One. I don't totally like it, but it's the best solution available. (One of the Honorable rules that really does strike me as not-quite-right is that you are justified in wiping out a civ if it declares war on you. That's what I intended to take a try at limiting in this game and see how it works out.)

Do note that demanding withdrawal for the purpose of getting the AI to break a 20-turn peace treaty (when they've conceded something material for peace) IS considered exploitive, and rightly so.

PS. Forgot to tie two points together in my previous post - we should get the MPP with India canceled, and THEN capture Moscow and St. Pete and make peace. :)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 16, 2002 07:19 PM

If the MPP still has a few turns to run, I guess I will just have to use our artillery to shell Russian cities till I can cancel the MPP. :D

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 16, 2002 07:55 PM

Or don't use the artillery until then. ;)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 18, 2002 05:27 AM

1720AD inherited turn: With the exception of rushing a few combat settlers and using the extra artillery to bombard secondary cities. I leave things as I find them.

1725AD Shell St. Pete and Kuibyshev. Move troops a bit and kill Russian straglers.
1730AD St. Pete captured.
(I) We fight off the Russian counter attack on St. Pete.
1735AD cancel MPP with India. Make peace with China. Artillery moved into postion to Shell Moscow.
1740AD - 1745AD troop movement and shelling of Moscow. Combat Settlers build cities inside Russian Territory.
1750AD Our cavalry kills a cossack and we get the GL Ramses. He forms an army and kills a Russian longbow. Our other elite Cavalry kills another longbow and we get the GL Cheops, who builds a University in New Pi- Ramesses.
We capture Moscow. I begin Peace talks with Cathy, she will cede 5 towns to me, but will not give me Rostov. I break off talks to bombard Rostov some more.
1752AD Rostov is shelled down from size 5 to size 3. We make a last try at GL fishing and an infanrty gets us Khufu who builds an university in Magnitojersk.
We make Peace with Russia, Cathy gives us 4 cities (Rostov, Kuibyshev, Uralsk and New Lahore. Also we get 120 gold. She will not give us tech.
I begin disbanding infantry in cities to help rush improvements.
After making peace our citizens are all happy again, so lux tax dropped to zero and I make a tour of our cities to put some clowns back to work. Also in our super corrupt cities I hire some taxmen.
1754AD - 1760AD Work on building culture by disbanding infantry. Heroic epic and military acadamy built. Giza begins building armies to get to 3 armies so we can have pentagon. (I figure we can disband the armies after that).

A settler with 3 infanty sent by Galley to northern part of Indias main continent. They have landed and I was going to move them to the foot of the mountain with Gems and build a town. Another settler is being built on our main continent to send over there to provide the Gem town with a harbor (flight is not many techs away maybe waiting for an airport would be better)

Russia / China have an embargo against us. I would have liked to have traded coal & luxuries to Russia for tech. I know we are behind by at least 2 techs and probably more. I never saw a tank so I am not sure if Russia has that tech or not.

Now for some good news: Apollo shows us winning a culture victory in 1973 :beer: By then I estimate that our culture will be in excess of 200,000.

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

edited to change number of armies needed for pentagon from 5 to 3

Author : LKendter
Date : Sep 18, 2002 05:55 AM

Keep the mad culture rush going!

Rushed culture with the GL was a good move for this game.
Even a couple of flipped city would do wonders.

Keep going, I would like to see 100000 pt happen. I still haven't won that type of game. Very close once, but 20000 pt kicked in 4 turns earlier.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 18, 2002 03:17 PM

Very good turn. We could've considered using a GL to move the Palace over to Russia's continent, so some of the cities there can build their own infrastructure, but no big deal - the universities are good too.

Also remember that 20 turns is always still okay to play, and while at peace will go faster of course.

Victory in 1973? May be tough preventing a spaceship win before then, but that's exactly the challenge I wanted :) Also we do have Research Labs coming eventually for another shot of culture. As for tech, we did stay in Democracy, right? So play follow-the-leader research - we want to get gold OUT of the global economy and not into the hands of our rivals. (What governments did Russia and India wind up in? And are they still at war with each other?)

Sirp - Up Now
Exsanguination - On Deck

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 18, 2002 04:22 PM

In 1760 Russia and India are communist governments. Yes they are still at war. We are still a democracy. I started to research refining while keeping our cash flow just above 100 gold per turn.

I briefly considered moving the palace, but I was not sure how bad corruption would be in some of our big producing cities like Thebes and Giza.

Question: Is drafting units to be disbanded for their shields allowed? Or is it dishonorable to treat our citizens in that manner?

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 18, 2002 04:28 PM

Wow... this game is playing out very much like Epic 11 for me...

One question: does Apollo only tell you when you'll reach 100000 culture, or when youll reach 100000 + have double culture (thus giving the actual victory date)?

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 18, 2002 04:46 PM

Giza's right by the Forbidden Palace, so it'd be fine. The optimal city count for a standard map is 16; with courthouses and police stations, it takes until the 24th city from the capital or FP for it to become useless 1 gold/1 shield. The cities in the Thebes - Heliopolis area would probably have about 60% corruption with the Palace gone - but they may as well, since there isn't anything they need to build, and it would lift 16 cities on the Russian continent out of 1/1 to usefulness. I would've moved the Palace, but it's not a critical failure not to, and such is the fun of an SG. :)

Nothing dishonorable about drafting and disbanding - it's basically the same as despotism whipping, which isn't dishonorable either. Maybe it's mean, but sometimes a government must be.

We're at something like 80,000 now, so Apollo must be showing the date of victory via double culture. I'm not sure, though, which of the other civs is our rival!

Exsanguination - careful on the Epic remarks - even knowing that you're playing for 100k culture is a bit of a spoiler...

Author : LKendter
Date : Sep 18, 2002 04:53 PM

Apollo shows the project date of the actual win. It will also show when you will hit 100,000 pts. As for which civ is the Rival - I think Apollo will let you select the civ. You could see which one hits 100,000 pts first.

In my one attempt, I started to watch the victory date drop very fast as I razed enemy cities. Reason: The enemy culture growth rate was dying.

You next key is to get those new Russia cities culture ASAP. This will increase the rate that your culture is growing vs. Russian / Indian culture. This will bring the victory date closer.

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 18, 2002 07:53 PM

One more thing - a Palace in Russia would greatly benefit us for flipping - both of the cities we took and the ones they still hold. So if we get another chance, we may want to do that.

To keep this at the end of the thread -
Sirp <<< UP NOW
Exsanguination <<< On Deck

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 18, 2002 10:00 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
Exsanguination - careful on the Epic remarks - even knowing that you're playing for 100k culture is a bit of a spoiler...

How do you know I'm playing for a 100k culture? ;)

Author : Sirp
Date : Sep 18, 2002 10:23 PM

Sorry everyone, but I'm going to have to resign from this game. Work is just insanely busy at the moment, and I don't have time for Civ :-/

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 19, 2002 10:24 PM

Well, sorry to see you go, if you're sure you can't jump in for even 5 peace-filled turns? :)

Exsanguination, I guess you're up then.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 20, 2002 12:08 AM

Got it. Can't play until tomorrow, though.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 20, 2002 04:53 PM

1760 - Ha! Look at China! :crazyeye:
I have no plans of war unless someone really bugs me. If we're dismissive of India's culture, doesn't that mean we thave at least twice theirs? Wow, we really ate up Russia there.
1762 - We need transports to get all those infantry over to the foreign territory. Build several infantry, queue up several more. New Busirius founded, and *boom* we have gems.
1764 - Several WLTQ days go off. More infantry. India will give us Steel for all our excess luxuries. 645g + ivory + wines + dyes for steel. Done.
1766 -
1768 - Finish Army. We catch Gandhi attempting to plant a spy in Thebes. We'll get him soon enough. Gandhi will give us Refining for two luxes. I hold off.
1770 - Shoot! I didn't see that settler... Russia founds Tiflis where I should have found a city. Oh well, move settler east to found there. I take a look at India's military. It's feeble in numbers compared to ours, but cavalry vs infantry is ugly.
1772 - Oh ****... India demands furs. I tell him to stick it, he caves. Lots of Cossacks suddenly enter our territory. Either Cathy wants revenge or is just going for the three Indian cities on the coast. 5 fresh shipments of infantry arrive, I fortify them in those cities in danger just in case. I buy Refining from Gandhi for 445g. We now are equal in tech with our opponents. Continue research with Combustion (11 turns).
1774 - The Russians keep moving. Ooh, Cathy has Combustion. No way she'll give it to us. Disband lots of infantry to rush culture -we need cash!
1776 - More infantry arrive on the eastern shores.
1778 - Lots of disbanding, several culture buildings rushed.
1780 -

Not much happened... I chose not to go to war. IMHO maybe we shoud hold off till tanks and just rush a horde of them and storm the Indians. Then again we can go now. The fact that they caved with their demand tells us they may cave to our demands (ie leaving territory). I started fortifying more infantry in our home cities for dfense in case of war near the end of the turn. We may be ready for war, but I personally don't like infantry wars :). We are on our way to Combustion, and should beeline to Motorized Transportation from here on out.


Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 20, 2002 06:34 PM

Good turn, and it probably was your last ;)

If India does declare war, our best course of action is almost certainly to just play defensively until tanks arrive. But we're FLYING on gaining culture on them; good job, everyone. :goodjob: I would like to see if we can win without attacking India; whether we can should be clear by the end of my turn. Also, if we attack India we might just end up with a domination win, which would be a pretty lousy ending to all this :)

I'm not going to use Apollo or Mapstat; I'd rather play it within the context of the game, but I won't object if anyone else wants to use it on their turn.

A 100k cultural win before tanks is pretty impressive, in fact. How often can you get a non-military win before the modern age? :)

Both by looking at the histogram and the fact that we did just pass 100,000 but didn't win :), we definitely don't have twice India's culture. But the editor defines "dismissive of" as 1-to-2. I'm going to have to surmise that "dismissive of" just means LESS than the next category up, which is "unimpressed by" at 3-to-4, since India does have less than 75% of our culture.

Going the other way, the advisor says India is "impressed with" our culture, which clearly means at least 1-to-1 but not 2-to-1.

And somebody went ICSing a bit more than I would've over in Russia... New Edfu is really unnecessary, and its founding may have been a Cultural Push by the RBCiv rules. Well, it doesn't really matter.

Got it; can play tonight but may not be able to post back for a day or two (flaky internet access).

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 21, 2002 12:22 AM

Inherited turn:

Our home cities don't need more than two infantry each. I'll ship the extras over to our colonies in India.

Thebes takes back the cattle tile from South Thebes so it can get back to infantry-every-turn production.

I pull the artillery sitting out in the open back into a city - would hate for Russia to sneak attack and capture 40 guns. :)

Checking out the cultural production - we're producing over 1,100 culture per turn. That's a lot. :) But India is still probably producing about 500 per turn - so it might still take a while to win.

I notice some of the rubber is disconnected - remember rubber and horses never run out, so it's safe to leave them connected.

We discover Combustion, and - get this - India researched Flight while Russia researched Mass Production. :) I'd love to broker between them, but both want way too much for their tech. I set to Mass Production because it's cheaper.

Russia captured New Jaipur - that only makes it more likely to flip to us. :)

I played 15 turns, to 1810. We will get our win, eventually, though it looks like it will take a while longer unless we do want to try to get India to declare war.

And now I realize a significant problem for a 100k victory - maintenance costs! We're spending almost HALF our post-corruption income only on building maintenance! With that, we really don't have much more to allocate to science than Russia and India do, even with us in Democracy.

All the cities have the three cheap cultural buildings (temple, library, cathedral), and the infantry coming over have been enough to build about one university every turn. I'd recommend just doing that now, so we can allocate our cash towards keeping up in science (gonna need the Research Labs when they become available.)

And India and Russia are STILL at war! Don't trade them any more luxuries if we can help it... they're both having happiness problems (I think each has only 2 lux of their own) even in Communism. And India has oil but no rubber, while Russia has rubber but no oil -- no tanks for either of them :D


Architect <<< UP NOW
Jersey Joe <<< ON DECK

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 21, 2002 12:30 AM

I got it.

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 21, 2002 03:08 PM

Post turn report: I didn't play these turns as well as I could have. It didn't occur to me until about midway through to try and improve the economy on the russian continent. Had I done this from the start, I think we would have been alot better off. We also need to get back to 1000gold for full Wall Street effects.

1810 (0) - I disband our calvary on the mainland for a bank.

1812 (1) - I'm modernizing our galleons to transports by disbanding the galleons and building transports. We have WAY to much navy as it is.

1814 (2) We also have way to much defense. 2 Infantry per city on an isolated continent in this stage of the game is completely unnecessary and is costing 20+ a turn. We will always have plenty of troops in the process of being built anyway for defense. I am also going to disband a number of our ironclads and replace them with less destroyers.

1816 (3) We start building the pentagon.

1818 (4) More disband building...

1820 (5) We are now up to 78gpt a turn with 6 turns to MT.

1822 (6) India get's MT and is in the modern age, I go 90% science to get MT next turn.

1824 (7) We get MT, I switch all production to tanks. We are 11 turns to flight.

1826 (8) We complete the pentagon. Russia has flight so we are down to 8 turns for flight.

1828 (9) ..

1830 (10)

1832 (11) Last of the calvary disbanded.

1834 (12)

1836 (13) Russian and China sign and alliance against India. What is china thinking...

1838 (14) We get flight and start on Computers. 18 turns to computers.

1840 (15) New Jaipur Flips... Thanks Russia! I'm building courthouses on the Russian continent and we are actually seeing a benefit. Right now we can't affort to add Research labs without improving our economy.

1842 (16) Rush 6 more courthouses on the Russian continent 56 gpt right now.

1844 (17) New Chittigong Flips to us.

1846 (18) Build a police station in New Elephantine. Went from 2 shields and six total commerce to 4 shields and 18 total commerce without a marketplace. We should have been building corruption and economic buildings on the russian contentint along time ago in certain cities.

1848 (19) +71gpt.

1850 (20) 16 tanks on their way to New Russia for disbanding. I would focus on building up the economy in the size 6+ cities over there. Marketplaces, banks, harbors, airports are free. I've started building airports in all the cities on the main continent which should speed up the build up process. We still need to build one on the russian continent. I should have done this a few turns ago... We will never be able to afford research labs and more culture buildings and keep researching without doing this. A GL should also have been used to move our palace to russia and then things really could have got cooking... oh well.


Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 21, 2002 03:58 PM

I notice some of the rubber is disconnected - remember rubber and horses never run out, so it's safe to leave them connected.

And yet again, T-Hawk teaches me another invaluable lesson :).

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 21, 2002 06:16 PM

Thanks for the progress. :)

As for the economy, who says we need to research anything after Computers? Mech Inf provide all the defense we'll ever need - neither opponent can build tanks - and we don't need the modern armor or spaceship techs. (Diplomatic win is disabled.) The cultural win's gotta come sometime soon - we are still gaining on India, right? Especially with the few newly flipped cities to build the cheap cultural buildings in.

Jersey Joe <<< Up Now
Sirp << On Deck If He Wants It
Exsanguination << On Deck

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 21, 2002 06:28 PM

It looks to me from the graphs that we already have twice as much culture as India so I don't know why the stupid thing isn't triggering.

Plus, I was bored so I was trying to make something meaniful happen rather than just end-turning the win...

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 21, 2002 11:16 PM

That graph can be misleading at first glance. Take a scrap of paper or something and measure along the bottom... you'll see that we don't quite have double India's culture, but it is pretty close. Double is a long way to get ahead of someone else...

Author : LKendter
Date : Sep 21, 2002 11:48 PM

You guys should win in 1956. You have already hit 100000 pts., it is simply a question of doubling India.

Your main competion is India. The best thing that can happen is that Russia takes a few more India cities as that will slow the growth of Indian culture and cut some turns from the end game.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 22, 2002 03:01 AM

Originally posted by T-hawk
And somebody went ICSing a bit more than I would've over in Russia... New Edfu is really unnecessary, and its founding may have been a Cultural Push by the RBCiv rules. Well, it doesn't really matter.

That was probably me. Without looking at the map I do not recall exactly where New Edfu is but, I do not think it was a cultural push. I built cities in Russian Teritory during out war and used those cities for launching attacks vs Russia or to gain a resource.

I got it and will ty and post back on Sunday.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 23, 2002 12:50 AM

1850AD Inherited turn: Rush 1 library, leave the rest alone.
1852AD New Indus leaves India and joins us.
1854AD New Elephantine builds an Airport.
1856AD Giza begins to prebuild SETI.
1858AD (I) Kuibyshev (with a hospital) hit by disease. New Dye
Town hit by disease.
1860AD workers work, build more culture.
1862AD (I) India begins work on Manhattan Project :(
1864AD - 1870AD workers work, build more culture.
(I) We learn about computers and start Ecology.
1872AD (I) India-China make peace, India & Russia still at war.
1874AD - 1890AD workers work, build more culture.

Our city defense on the main continent has all ben upgraded to
Mech Inf, I did this over several turns by building mech infantry in those towns and shipping the infantry off to slow growth towns to be disbanded. This last turn I was able to send a couple of Mech Inf over to our holdings on the Russian continent.

I have 2 towns building bombers for relocation to the 2 towns up in the far north by the gems to disband and rush buildings there.

Russia & India are still at war :goodjob:

Here it is: Honorable Egypt

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 23, 2002 01:05 AM

Whoa am I up already? I thought my turns were over ;). If Sirp doesn't call it by tomorrow I'll post a got it (prob sometime in the afternoon).

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 23, 2002 02:10 AM

Joe - Cultural Push is only an exploit during peace, so no problem with those cities. :) Good moves there that I wouldn't even have thought of. :goodjob:

I take it India got Fission but not Computers. Will India get nukes? Will they use them? Still a bit of suspense in this game :) I also take it that you got research labs built in our core cities of course.

Yep, Ex, you're up again - it isn't quite over yet :)

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 23, 2002 01:11 PM

Yes I did build research labs in our core cities. I may have missed getting a research lab in one of the towns in the tundra.

India's building the Manhattan project brings up a question about honorable warfare. If India nukes Russia, we might by default be at war with India. Since we have no control over this, it is an honorable war.
The Question is, can we take the fight onto Indian soil, or is it a defensive war?

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 23, 2002 02:59 PM

If the RBCiv rules don't address nuclear aggression they should. Any "honorable" civ would do everything in their power to prevent being nuked again.

If India nukes us, I say we have the right to elminate them from the game just on principle.

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 23, 2002 06:37 PM

Ooooooooooh! now it makes sense! :crazyeye: (that's why everyone declared war on Persia in Epic 11 :))

Almost forgot, but... got it :).

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 23, 2002 06:56 PM

The Honorable rules state: NOTE: nuclear weapons are seen as any other weapon or unit: the context of their usage falls within already stated guidelines. War is Hell, with or without these weapons, and though they carry special weight and dread in the real world, the game does not reflect the severity of the consequences well enough.

At the time that was written, though, we didn't know about the auto-declaration of war against a civ that uses nukes. And, Architect, whether a civilization has the right to Honorably invade another to preemptively prevent use of nuclear weapons is, of course, a very real and controversial issue in the real world right now. :)

Let's go by this: If India does nuke Russia and we auto-declare war on India, treat it as a defensive-only war for the time being. But if India then makes significant aggression against us - nuclear or not - we're justified in capturing the 5 cities. (Let's not go wiping them out, since we'd just get a Domination victory instead. :) )

India might not even have uranium, and we might just get the victory before they get Space Flight and any nukes produced, so this may all be moot anyway, but it's still an interesting discussion. And I just looked at the save - they're building Manhattan in Madras, which is only size 15 and half its tiles are flood plains, so even that will take a while to finish. :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 23, 2002 08:13 PM

Download SAV

0 -Did we finish the SETI Program? Apparently yes in Giza. Move the sci slider up 10%, at a deficit but we get Ecology in 2 turns rather than 3. Russia has Ecology and India has Fission; both have Rocketry. I see a trade coming up soon.

1 - I play follow the leader and start planting forests :confused:. I also try to make the infamous mine/forest-on-same-tile happen. Where are all the transports? I'm getting lost :crazyeye:

2 - We discover Ecology. I stat research on Miniturization (16 turns). We'vehad computers for way too long. I DO NOT want to miss outon the opportunity to sell it, so I make some trades. I sell it to Russia for Rocketryplus all their gold, but when I go to India he refuses! I hate this rapid tech devaluation thing, he wants nothing less than both computers and ecology, 2 luxes, aluminum and half our bloody gold! At least he doesn't have aluminum (no nukes) :). But that really pisses me off. At least Russia and India are at war, so India won't be getting it (I bet they make peace, swap techs, and go to war again :rolleyes: ). I get Gandhi he can screw himself.

3 - start building Mass Transit Systems in core cities.

4 - Gandhi still a jerk. I use some of the extra cash to rush colloseums.

5 - More rushing...

The Computers thing is really pissing me off. Before I traded it, Gandhi would have accepted it with some gold for Fission. I probably should have traded it to him first... I'm trying to remember why I gave it to Cathy first (I KNOW there was a reason...). Or maybe I just went braindead. Oh well, we can still survive. Gandhi wants Aluminum+Furs+Computer+Ecology+WM+1280g right now for Fission. The game should end anytime now.

Good luck!


Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 23, 2002 10:54 PM

India had to have uranium to start building the Manhattan project. So unless Russia (or us) took it from them or it was depleted they still have uranium

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 24, 2002 03:46 PM

Uranium depletes the most often of any resource; no idea if India still has any.

I started playing last night; India built the Manhattan Project in 1914, and got Space Flight in 1920. Fine with me; they can't build any spaceship parts without Aluminium, and they still don't have Computers (a big :smoke: for trying to trade it to them - why would we let them have research labs?). I'll finish tonight.

India and Russia are, of course, still at war... I've NEVER seen two AIs hate each other this much! :) And it started by India coming to our defense in an MPP! :lol:

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 24, 2002 04:31 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
(a big :smoke: for trying to trade it to them - why would we let them have research labs?). I'll finish tonight.

Yea, I know. But I've had really bad experiences with holding on to a valuable tech for too long and then, the turn I choose to give it up, they already have it :rolleyes:. I went back and noticed that we'd had it for 20+years, which is usually way overdue for the AI to research a tech like Computers. I'm very surprised that the STILL don't have it. As for the research labs, they are at war. I doubt India would spend enough time to build a significant number of research labs, and if it did it would probably start them in their corrupt cities.

BTW - you can grab EX? if you want...

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 24, 2002 04:40 PM

Here's a little trick: Offer Computers to the AI every turn, and watch what they offer for it. If what they offer goes down, you know they're researching it currently. I kept doing that with both Computers and Ecology, and neither price went down any, and then India got Space Flight. Then even in the two turns after they got Space Flight, the Computers and Ecology prices still weren't going down - so now they must be researching either Nuclear Power or Satellites. :smoke:

Right now is the most effective time to use that tactic, since 1) there isn't anybody else that can trade Computers to India, and 2) India's only researching about every 12-15 turns. So we can keep our tech away from them for a good long time.

BTW - you can grab EX? if you want...

"Anyone can grab it now" is actually one of the worst things you can say in an SG. :) My first game, Sir Jethro's, and several others all died the instant someone said that. I'll rescue EX? as soon as I finish with this one, though. :)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 24, 2002 05:06 PM

Didn't know that... Well now I know :).

As for EX? (sorry for hijacking this SG :)) - I generally like to let the turn order be free for one round and however that turns out let it be the final, concrete turn order. If you want I'll make a hard and fast one now.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 24, 2002 06:47 PM

Other than taking some gold away from Russia and India, I do not see any reason for us to be trading tech.

T-hawk, I do like your idea for offer tech every turn to get an idea of what the other countries are researching. :goodjob:

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 25, 2002 03:12 PM

Played 20 turns, till 1940, then broke down and ran Apollo, and I'll let the pictures tell the story. (If you only see two pictures, get a browser that can view PNGs.)

(Pictures and save are in my own webspace, since I plan to archive this thread and pictures to a page there. :) )

Cultural Victory in 1944 AD. 5664 points. Over 200,000 culture! And we outbuilt India fair and square the whole way; never went to war with them.

Final Save

Great game, guys! And thanks for sticking around for the whole thing (Sirp gets 80% of thanks :) )

Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 25, 2002 03:16 PM

And, yup, India and Russia stayed at war the whole time. Look at the last few entries in the replay - they didn't even capture a city from each other for the last 60 turns! (The last few captures of Indian cities were flips to us.)

And that was quite a haul of flipped cities - what was it, a dozen or so over the entire game? :goodjob:

Was this the first 100k culture SG win? I don't recall any others.

Author : Jersey Joe
Date : Sep 25, 2002 04:34 PM

:beer: Way to go T-hawk :beer:

Great game everyone! :goodjob:

Only other culture SG win I know of was a 20k single city win.

Is there going to be a TH3? If there is, sign me up. :D

Author : LKendter
Date : Sep 25, 2002 04:43 PM

I don't know of any 100K wins.

20K wins - Early LK Babylon game with that exact goal.

Anyone plays LK Greece game, that stumbled into 20K. I thought it was really neat that an anyone plays game cooperated for something other than a military win.

In all my games, I still haven't won a 100K game. Glad to see it can be done ;)

Author : Exsanguination
Date : Sep 25, 2002 05:28 PM

My (our...) first Emperor victory!!! ;) This was a great game, and thanks to T-Hawk for teaching me enough to attempt my own Emperor game :). And btw, this was the first 100k victory I've been apart of/accomplished.


Author : T-hawk
Date : Sep 25, 2002 07:33 PM

There will be a TH3, in a week or two, once I think of a good idea for one. :) In the meantime, this gang can hop over to SP1 and help out their parallel-universe Egypt if you like.

Author : Architect
Date : Sep 26, 2002 01:38 AM

Congrats everyone.

I wonder if a 100K win on Deity is even possible with these rules or the RBE rules...

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